Cyfarfu’r Cynulliad am 1.30 p.m. gyda’r Llywydd (Rosemary Butler) yn y Gadair.

The Assembly met at 1.30 p.m. with the Presiding Officer (Rosemary Butler) in the Chair.

Teyrnged i Lowyr y Gleision
Tribute to Gleision Miners

Y Llywydd: Prynhawn da.

The Presiding Officer: Good afternoon.

It is my sad duty today to ask you to stand to observe a minute’s silence in memory of the miners who tragically lost their lives at the Gleision mine last week.

Fy nyletswydd trist heddiw yw gofyn ichi sefyll i nodi munud o dawelwch er cof am y glowyr a gollodd eu bywydau yn drasig ym mhwll y Gleision yr wythnos diwethaf.

Safodd Aelodau’r Cynulliad am funud o dawelwch.
Assembly Members stood for a minute’s silence.

Datganiad am Bwll y Gleision
Statement on the Gleision Mine

The First Minister (Carwyn Jones): Members will be familiar with the key facts surrounding the tragedy at Gleision Colliery near Pontardawe at the end of last week. We now know that four miners from a party of seven were trapped by water in a ventilation shaft. Three miners escaped. We also know that efforts to rescue the remaining four trapped men were unsuccessful. The four miners were Charles Breslin, David Powell, Garry Jenkins and Phillip Hill; all were local to the Swansea and Neath Valleys. I know that all Members will join me in offering sincere condolences to the bereaved families. Our thoughts are with them and the wider community that shares in their loss.

Y Prif Weinidog (Carwyn Jones): Bydd Aelodau yn gyfarwydd â’r ffeithiau allweddol ynglŷn â’r drychineb yng Nglofa’r Gleision ger Pontardawe ddiwedd yr wythnos diwethaf. Rydym bellach yn gwybod bod dŵr wedi trapio pedwar glöwr o grŵp o saith mewn siafft awyru. Dihangodd tri glöwr. Gwyddom hefyd y bu ymdrechion i achub y pedwar dyn yn aflwyddiannus. Y pedwar glöwr oedd Charles Breslin, David Powell, Garry Jenkins a Phillip Hill; roedd pob un yn lleol i Gwm Tawe a Chwm Nedd. Gwn y bydd yr Aelodau i gyd yn ymuno â mi i gynnig ein cydymdeimlad dwys i’r teuluoedd yn eu profedigaeth. Mae’r teuluoedd hynny, ynghyd â’r gymuned ehangach sy’n rhannu yn eu colled, yn ein meddyliau.

Yr oedd amser yn ein hanes pan oedd damweiniau yn y gweithiau glo yn rhy gyffredin. Yr oeddem yn gobeithio, wrth gwrs, bod yr achlysuron hynny yn y gorffennol, ond mae’r digwyddiad yn y Gleision yn ein hatgoffa o’r peryglon sy’n gysylltiedig â’r diwydiant glo.

There was a time in our history when mining tragedies were sadly common. We had hoped, of course, that these events were in the past. The incident at Gleision is a tragic reminder of the dangers associated with the mining industry. 

South Wales Police are leading the investigation in accordance with the work-related deaths protocol agreed between the police, the Health and Safety Executive, local authorities and the Crown Prosecution Service. The Health and Safety Executive is providing technical support. At a later stage, it may be appropriate for the HSE to take the lead in the investigation, as has happened in other incidents. I expect a full report into the causes of the tragedy to be published in due course, so that any lessons learnt can be applied elsewhere. I would like to pay tribute to the emergency services and rescue teams that worked unstintingly, and at personal risk, to search for the miners. These include the police and fire and ambulance services, along with the mines and caves rescue services. Mining communities are traditionally close-knit and supportive to those in need, and we saw this through the immediate response of the community in setting up a base at Rhos Community Centre to support the families and loved ones of the miners. No-one can fail to have been impressed by the kindness shown by neighbours at a time of need. Llywydd, I have referred to the shared history of coal mining, which still forms a powerful bond among communities in many parts of our country. The tragedy at Gleision is a tragedy for Wales.

Mae Heddlu De Cymru yn arwain yr ymchwiliad yn unol â’r protocol marwolaethau yn y gwaith y cytunwyd arno gan yr heddlu, yr Awdurdod Gweithredol Iechyd a Diogelwch, awdurdodau lleol a Gwasanaeth Erlyn y Goron. Mae’r Awdurdod Gweithredol Iechyd a Diogelwch yn darparu cymorth technegol. Yn nes ymlaen, efallai y bydd yn briodol i’r AGID gymryd yr awenau yn yr ymchwiliad, fel sydd wedi digwydd mewn achosion eraill. Yr wyf yn disgwyl i adroddiad llawn ar achosion y ddamwain gael ei gyhoeddi maes o law, er mwyn i unrhyw wersi gael eu dysgu a’u cymhwyso mewn mannau eraill. Hoffwn dalu teyrnged i’r gwasanaethau brys a’r timau achub a weithiodd yn ddiflino, mewn mannau peryglus, i chwilio am y glowyr. Mae’r rhain yn cynnwys yr heddlu, y gwasanaethau tân ac ambiwlans, a’r gwasanaethau achub o fwyngloddiau ac ogofâu. Yn draddodiadol, mae cymunedau glofaol yn glòs ac yn gefnogol i’r rhai mewn angen, a gwelsom hyn yn y ffordd yr ymatebodd y gymuned yn syth drwy ddarparu cefnogaeth yng Nghanolfan Gymunedol Rhos i deuluoedd ac anwyliaid y glowyr. Ni all unrhyw un fethu â chydnabod y caredigrwydd a ddangoswyd gan gymdogion mewn cyfnod o angen. Lywydd, yr wyf wedi cyfeirio at ein hanes o gloddio am lo, sydd yn dal i ffurfio bond cryf ymysg cymunedau ein gwlad. Mae’r drychineb yn Gleision yn drychineb i Gymru.

The Presiding Officer: As the First Minister said, there has been a great outpouring of grief from around the world, and you will all have received a letter from the Secretary of State for Wales.

Y Llywydd: Fel y dywedodd y Prif Weinidog, bu galaru eang ar draws y byd, a byddwch i gyd wedi derbyn llythyr oddi wrth Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru.

The Leader of the Opposition (Andrew R.T. Davies): I thank the First Minister for his statement this afternoon, and the Presiding Officer for allowing time for this statement to be made. It is entirely appropriate, during our first meeting here, that we, as the collective of the elected representatives of Wales, come together to show our support and strength as a country in dealing with such issues. In a world that is numbed by news about deaths from across the world, it is often taken for granted that they are happening somewhere else. However, Friday’s events graphically emphasised the tragic consequences of mining accidents. I know the area well, as my wife’s aunt has farmed the land that neighbours the mine for around 60 years. It was striking to see the location of the mine, because it had never occurred to me that there was a mine in that area.

Arweinydd yr Wrthblaid (Andrew R.T. Davies): Diolch i’r Prif Weinidog am ei ddatganiad y prynhawn yma, a’r Llywydd am ganiatáu amser ar gyfer y datganiad hwn. Mae’n gwbl briodol, yn ystod ein cyfarfod cyntaf yma, ein bod ni, fel cynrychiolwyr etholedig Cymru, yn dod at ein gilydd i ddangos ein cefnogaeth a’n cryfder fel gwlad wrth ddelio â materion o’r fath. Wrth glywed newyddion trist am farwolaethau o bob rhan o’r byd, mae pobl yn aml yn cymryd yn ganiataol eu bod yn digwydd yn rhywle arall. Fodd bynnag, mae digwyddiadau dydd Gwener wedi pwysleisio canlyniadau trasig damweiniau mwyngloddio. Yr wyf yn nabod yr ardal yn dda, gan fod modryb fy ngwraig wedi ffermio tir cyfagos i’r pwll am tua 60 mlynedd. Roedd yn drawiadol i weld lleoliad y pwll, gan nad oeddwn erioed wedi meddwl bod pwll yn yr ardal honno.

I pay tribute, along with the First Minister, to the excellent work done by the emergency services on behalf of all concerned, in trying to bring a favourable outcome to the tragedy that happened last Thursday and Friday. As one of the regional Members who represents the area where the mines rescue service is based in the Rhondda, it was a source of enormous pride for me to see them working hand in glove with everyone else to try to bring a satisfactory conclusion to these sad events. I believe that the response that we saw from the community was a very Welsh one. One thing that Wales is exceptionally good at is rallying around and supporting people when they need support. I believe that only in Wales would you find that level of community support and help.

Rhof deyrnged, fel y gwnaeth y Prif Weinidog, i waith rhagorol y gwasanaethau brys ar ran pawb yr effeithiwyd arnynt, wrth geisio dod â chanlyniad ffafriol i’r drychineb ddydd Iau a dydd Gwener diwethaf. Fel un o’r Aelodau rhanbarthol sy’n cynrychioli’r ardal lle mae’r gwasanaeth achub pyllau glo wedi ei leoli yn y Rhondda, roedd yn destun balchder enfawr i mi eu gweld yn gweithio law yn llaw â phawb arall i geisio dod â’r digwyddiadau trist hyn i ben yn gadarnhaol. Credaf fod yr ymateb a welsom gan y gymuned yn un Cymreig iawn. Un peth mae Cymru yn gallu ei wneud yn eithriadol o dda yw bod yn gefn i bobl pan fydd arnynt angen cymorth. Credaf mai dim ond yng Nghymru y byddech yn dod o hyd i’r lefel honno o gefnogaeth a chymorth gymunedol.

First Minister, I would like to pose two questions to you. First, in your mind, is there sufficient local support from the local health board and the local authorities to ensure that the families of the bereaved and the survivors receive the support that they require? That support could be in the field of education for the children, or family support, so that, with time, adjustments can be made—although I doubt whether many people will ever forget their loved ones who perished on Friday.

Brif Weinidog, hoffwn ofyn dau gwestiwn i chi. Yn gyntaf, yn eich barn chi, a oes digon o gefnogaeth leol gan y bwrdd iechyd lleol a’r awdurdodau lleol i sicrhau bod y teuluoedd sydd mewn profedigaeth a’r goroeswyr yn cael y cymorth sydd ei angen arnynt? Gallai hynny fod ym maes addysg ar gyfer y plant, neu gymorth i deuluoedd, er mwyn gwneud addasiadau gydag amser—er fy mod yn amau na fydd llawer o bobl yn anghofio eu hanwyliaid a fu farw ddydd Gwener. 

Secondly, you alluded to the issue of an investigation. I appreciate that you cannot go into any depth on that now, but when conclusions are brought forward on matters that relate to the responsibility of the Assembly—such as planning—will you bring a full statement to Plenary so that Members have an opportunity to analyse the issue and ask questions, where appropriate, to ensure that any improvements required are made? In closing, I leave the thoughts and prayers of the Welsh Conservatives with the families of the bereaved, and express our support for the survivors of this tragedy and the events that unfolded on Thursday and Friday.

Yn ail, cyfeiriasoch at ymchwiliad. Sylweddolaf na allwch roi unrhyw fanylion am hynny yn awr, ond pan ddaw casgliadau ar faterion sy’n ymwneud â chyfrifoldeb y Cynulliad—fel cynllunio—a wnewch chi wneud datganiad llawn mewn Cyfarfod Llawn er mwyn i Aelodau gael cyfle i ddadansoddi’r mater a gofyn cwestiynau, lle bo’n briodol, er mwyn sicrhau bod unrhyw welliannau angenrheidiol yn cael eu gwneud? Wrth gloi, mae meddyliau a gweddïau’r Ceidwadwyr Cymreig gyda’r teuluoedd sydd mewn profedigaeth, ac rydym yn cefnogi goroeswyr y drychineb a’r hyn a ddigwyddodd ddydd Iau a dydd Gwener.

Arweinydd Plaid Cymru (Ieuan Wyn Jones): Diolchaf i’r Prif Weinidog yn gynnes iawn am ei ddatganiad heddiw. Mae’n hollol briodol bod datganiad yn cael ei wneud heddiw, o gofio’r drychineb fawr a ddigwyddodd ym mhwll glo’r Gleision yng Nghwm Tawe ddydd Iau diwethaf. Yr ydym i gyd, fel Aelodau, yn anfon ein cydymdeimlad dwysaf at y teuluoedd yn eu colled.

The Leader of Plaid Cymru (Ieuan Wyn Jones): I very warmly thank the First Minister for his statement today. It is wholly appropriate that he made a statement today, given the scale of the tragedy that took place at the Gleision mine in the Swansea Valley last Thursday. We all, as Members, send our sincerest sympathies to the families in their loss.

Ein hymateb cyntaf, mae’n siŵr, oedd nad oeddem yn disgwyl gweld trychineb o’r fath, fel y dywedodd y Prif Weinidog, gyda glowyr yn colli eu bywydau o dan y ddaear. Cawsom ein hatgoffa mewn ffordd hynod o greulon pa mor beryglus yw gweithio o dan y ddaear o hyd, er yr holl waith a gyflawnwyd dros y blynyddoedd a’r degawdau diwethaf i wneud pethau mor ddiogel â phosibl. Ni allwn ddychmygu’r loes y mae’r teuluoedd yn ei theimlo o golli eu hanwyliaid yn y  ddamwain yn y Gleision. Yr ydym yn anfon ein cofion atynt. Fel yr ydym wedi clywed, yr oedd yr holl gymuned wedi tynnu at ei gilydd i gefnogi’r teuluoedd, ac mae hynny’n destament i’r ysbryd sy’n bodoli yn y gymuned leol. Yr wyf i, hefyd, yn adnabod yr ardal yn dda: cefais fy magu yn un o’r cymoedd cyfagos ac euthum i’r ysgol ym Mhontardawe. Daeth yr ysbryd yr wyf yn gwybod amdano yn y gymuned i’r amlwg yn yr oriau yn dilyn y ddamwain.

Our first response, I am sure, was that we did not expect to see such a tragedy unfold, as the First Minister said, with miners losing their lives underground. We were reminded in a very cruel way just how dangerous working underground continues to be, despite all the work that has been done over the past years and decades to make things as safe as is possible. We cannot imagine the pain felt by these families in losing their loved ones in such an accident at the Gleision mine. We send our sincerest regards to them. As we have heard, the whole community pulled together to support the families, and that is testament to the spirit that exists in the local community. I, too, know the area well: I was brought up in a nearby valley and I attended school at Pontardawe. The spirit that I remember in that community became apparent in the hours following the accident.

I would also like to pay tribute to those who risked their lives in the search and rescue operation. While hope existed that the men could be found alive, they did everything humanly possible to reach them, and Wales is very proud of the work that they did. As the First Minister said, the investigation into the accident must go on: the police investigation and that of the Health and Safety Executive will, we trust, give the families and the community answers to many of the questions that they will surely have. I am sure that the First Minister will agree that we must not attempt to reach conclusions hastily, but we should all remain determined to learn the lessons of this devastating and tragic accident. One expert has reminded us already that it is impossible to eliminate all risks in working underground or working within the mining industry in general. Indeed, I am sure that many of us in the Chamber may well have relatives who have lost their lives in mining accidents, whether in the coal industry or in the slate quarries of north Wales or anywhere where people have to go underground to find metals.

Hoffwn hefyd dalu teyrnged i’r rhai a beryglodd eu bywydau yn y gwaith chwilio ac achub. Tra bod gobaith y gellid dod o hyd i’r dynion yn fyw, roeddent yn gwneud popeth o fewn eu gallu i’w cyrraedd, ac mae Cymru’n falch iawn o’u gwaith. Fel y dywedodd y Prif Weinidog, mae’n rhaid i’r ymchwiliad i’r ddamwain barhau: bydd ymchwiliad yr heddlu, a’r ymchwiliad gan yr Awdurdod Gweithredol Iechyd a Diogelwch, yn rhoi atebion, gobeithio, i’r teuluoedd a’r gymuned i nifer o’r cwestiynau sydd ganddynt. Yr wyf yn sicr y bydd y Prif Weinidog yn cytuno bod yn rhaid inni beidio â cheisio dod i gasgliadau ar frys, ond dylem i gyd barhau i fod yn benderfynol o ddysgu gwersi o’r ddamwain ddinistriol a thrasig hon. Mae un arbenigwr wedi ein hatgoffa eisoes ei bod yn amhosibl dileu pob risg wrth weithio dan ddaear neu yn y diwydiant mwyngloddio yn gyffredinol. Yn wir, yr wyf yn sicr bod gan sawl un ohonom yn y Siambr hon berthnasau a gollodd eu bywydau mewn damweiniau mwyngloddio, naill ai yn y diwydiant glo neu yn chwareli llechi gogledd Cymru, neu unrhyw le lle mae’n rhaid i bobl fynd o dan y ddaear i gloddio am fetelau.

While mining can be, and has been, made safer, it cannot be made entirely safe. Will the First Minister agree, however, that it is the job of Government at all levels to ensure that the risks are minimised and eliminated as far as is humanly possible? As we have seen today, the Members of this Assembly stand together as we mourn the loss of four miners in the Swansea Valley. We send our condolences to their families. We cannot know their pain, but we can do our utmost to stand by their side. Does the First Minister agree that the best tribute that we can pay to their memory is to ensure that, when the investigation is complete, we stand determined to do our best to ensure that, for the next generation who venture into the bowels of the earth to extract coal, mining is an even safer industry?

Er bod modd gwneud mwyngloddio yn fwy diogel—a bod hynny wedi digwydd—ni ellir ei wneud yn gwbl ddiogel. A fyddai’r Prif Weinidog yn cytuno, fodd bynnag, mai gwaith y Llywodraeth ar bob lefel yw sicrhau bod y risgiau yn cael eu lleihau a’u dileu lle bo hynny’n ddynol bosibl? Fel yr ydym wedi gweld heddiw, mae Aelodau’r Cynulliad hwn yn sefyll gyda’i gilydd wrth alaru am golli pedwar glöwr yng Nghwm Tawe. Anfonwn ein cydymdeimlad at eu teuluoedd. Nid ydym yn gwybod maint eu poen, ond gallwn wneud ein gorau glas i sefyll ochr yn ochr â hwy. A yw’r Prif Weinidog yn cytuno mai’r deyrnged orau y gallwn ei thalu er cof amdanynt, pan fydd yr ymchwiliad wedi’i gwblhau, yw gwneud ein gorau i sicrhau, ar gyfer y genhedlaeth nesaf sy’n mentro i grombil y ddaear i echdynnu glo, bod mwyngloddio yn ddiwydiant hyd yn oed yn fwy diogel?

The Presiding Officer: I call the First Minister; I should have called you after the leader of the opposition.

Y Llywydd: Galwaf y Prif Weinidog; dylwn fod wedi eich galw ar ôl arweinydd yr wrthblaid.

The First Minister: There will come a time for questions and for answers to be sought to those questions. It is natural, when we see a tragedy such as this, that people want to know how it happened. I do not believe that that time is upon us yet. I have listened carefully to the views of the families and they have asked to be left to grieve in peace. They must be allowed to do that, and I respect their wishes. There will come a time, of course, when there needs to be a full inquiry and, should there be any lessons from that inquiry that can be learned by organisations that are within the responsibility of the Welsh Government, then I will bring a statement before the Assembly in order for questions to be asked.

Y Prif Weinidog: Daw amser ar gyfer cwestiynau ac atebion i’r cwestiynau hynny. Mae’n naturiol, wrth weld trychineb fel hon, bod pobl eisiau gwybod sut y digwyddodd. Nid wyf yn credu bod yr amser hwnnw wedi cyrraedd eto. Yr wyf wedi gwrando’n ofalus ar farn y teuluoedd ac maent wedi gofyn am amser i alaru mewn heddwch. Rhaid iddynt gael yr hawl i wneud hynny, ac yr wyf yn parchu eu dymuniadau. Daw amser, wrth gwrs, pan fydd angen ymchwiliad llawn ac, os bydd unrhyw wersi y gellir eu dysgu gan sefydliadau mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn gyfrifol amdanynt, byddaf yn dod â datganiad gerbron y Cynulliad er mwyn i gwestiynau gael eu gofyn.

I join the leader of the opposition and of Plaid Cymru in once again expressing my condolences and the desire that mining should be as safe as possible—we emphasise the words ‘as possible’. These were experienced miners. It is right to say that there are risks with any job, but I do not think that anyone expected this tragedy to happen. There were many things that I thought that I would have to deal with in the course of my role as First Minister, but a mining accident was not one of them. I think that we all believed that mining accidents were a thing of the past and not something that we would all have to face, least of all those families that are now grieving.

Ymunaf ag arweinydd yr wrthblaid ac arweinydd Plaid Cymru unwaith eto i fynegi fy nghydymdeimlad ynghyd â fy awydd y dylai mwyngloddio fod mor ddiogel â phosibl—rydym yn pwysleisio’r geiriau ‘â phosibl’. Roedd y rhain yn lowyr profiadol. Mae’n wir dweud bod yna risgiau mewn unrhyw swydd, ond nid wyf yn credu bod unrhyw un yn disgwyl y drychineb hon. Roeddwn yn disgwyl gorfod delio â llawer o bethau yn fy rôl fel Prif Weinidog, ond nid oedd damwain fwyngloddio yn un ohonynt. Credaf ein bod i gyd yn credu bod damweiniau mwyngloddio yn perthyn i’r gorffennol ac nid yn rhywbeth y byddai’n rhaid i ni eu hwynebu—a neb yn fwy na’r teuluoedd sydd yn awr yn galaru.

The Leader of the Welsh Liberal Democrats (Kirsty Williams): I thank the First Minister for his statement and for the support that he has given to the families during this very difficult time and the role that he has played in recent days in providing that support. On behalf of the Welsh Liberal Democrats, I join you, First Minister, in sending our sincere condolences to the families of the men who have so tragically lost their lives and our best wishes to the survivors of this horrific accident. I do not think that anyone here can begin to imagine the horror and pain suffered by these families in those agonising hours following the knock on the door to say that their loved ones were trapped. It is a horrific experience to lose anyone in unexpected circumstances and in an accident, but to have that dragged out over such an extended period in the full glare and spotlight of international media attention must only add to those families’ difficulties.

Arweinydd Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru (Kirsty Williams): Diolch i’r Prif Weinidog am ei ddatganiad ac am y gefnogaeth y mae wedi’i rhoi i’r teuluoedd yn ystod y cyfnod anodd iawn hwn, a’r rôl y mae wedi’i chwarae dros y dyddiau diwethaf wrth ddarparu’r cymorth hwnnw. Ar ran Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru, yr wyf yn ymuno â chi, Brif Weinidog, wrth anfon ein cydymdeimlad diffuant at deuluoedd y dynion sydd wedi colli eu bywydau mor drasig, ac mae ein dymuniadau gorau gyda goroeswyr y ddamwain erchyll hon. Nid wyf yn credu y gall unrhyw un yma ddechrau dychmygu’r arswyd a’r boen a ddioddefodd y teuluoedd hyn yn ystod yr oriau ingol yn dilyn y gnoc ar y drws i ddweud bod eu hanwyliaid wedi’u dal. Mae’n brofiad erchyll i golli unrhyw un o dan amgylchiadau annisgwyl ac mewn damwain, ond mae’n rhaid bod profi hynny dros gyfnod estynedig, gyda’r holl sylw gan y cyfryngau rhyngwladol yn ychwanegu at anawsterau’r teuluoedd hynny.

1.45 p.m.

Like you, I would like to thank and pay tribute to all those who did their utmost in the most difficult of circumstances to bring a more positive end to this horrific incident: the mines rescue service, the police, the fire service and the paramedics, who worked, as you said, tirelessly and at great personal risk and under immense strain to try to bring those men home alive. They were determined, even when all hope was lost, to bring those men home to their families.

Fel chi, hoffwn ddiolch a thalu teyrnged i bawb a wnaeth eu gorau glas dan yr amgylchiadau mwyaf anodd i ddod â diwedd mwy cadarnhaol i’r digwyddiad erchyll hwn:  gwasanaeth achub y pyllau glo, yr heddlu, y gwasanaeth tân a’r parafeddygon, a weithiodd, fel y dywedasoch, yn ddiflino ac mewn perygl personol mawr ac o dan straen aruthrol i geisio dod â’r dynion hynny adref yn fyw. Roeddent yn benderfynol, hyd yn oed pan gollwyd pob gobaith, i ddod â’r dynion hynny adref at eu teuluoedd.

Everybody has been deeply touched by the common humanity of the people of Pontardawe and the surrounding area in their response to the families. We often hear that our society and our communities have in some way changed. This incident has demonstrated to us that that common humanity, and that feeling of belonging, has not changed in Welsh communities: it is as alive and well as it has ever been. In the most difficult of circumstances, we often see the best of humankind. We saw that in people’s response and the support that the community will, I am sure, continue to offer the families. I agree, First Minister, that now is not the time for definitive answers as to what happened and why. You may be able to tell the Assembly when you expect the reports and investigations to conclude, and when you might be able give us an update in the Chamber.

Mae dynoliaeth gyffredin pobl Pontardawe a’r cyffiniau yn eu hymateb i’r teuluoedd wedi cyffwrdd â chalonnau pawb. Clywn yn aml fod ein cymdeithas a’n cymunedau wedi newid mewn rhyw ffordd. Mae’r digwyddiad hwn wedi dangos i ni nad yw’r ddynoliaeth gyffredin honno a’r teimlad o berthyn wedi newid yng nghymunedau Cymru: mae mor fyw ac iach ag y bu erioed. Dan yr amgylchiadau mwyaf anodd, gwelwn yn aml y gorau o ddynolryw. Gwelsom hynny yn ymateb pobl ac yn y cymorth y bydd y gymuned, yr wyf yn siŵr, yn parhau i’w gynnig i’r teuluoedd. Yr wyf yn cytuno, Brif Weinidog, nad dyma’r amser am atebion pendant ynghylch beth ddigwyddodd a pham. Efallai y byddwch yn gallu dweud wrth y Cynulliad pryd rydych yn disgwyl i’r adroddiadau a’r ymchwiliadau ddod i ben, a phryd y gallech roi diweddariad i ni yn y Siambr.

To close, it may be that some people have wondered why there has been this response to this specific incident. In recent months, we have seen other workplace tragedies in which men and women lost their lives while simply doing their job. This recent incident is a reminder of our collective history and of our close connections to the mining industry, which are not so very far back. Indeed, my father was the first man in his family not to have to go down the pit. It connects us all, and that is why we have seen this response, because the incident is a reminder of our shared history and of the fact that no man should have to go to work, no matter what industry he is involved in, and not return home safe to his family.

I gloi, efallai bod rhai pobl wedi bod yn meddwl pam y bu ymateb fel hyn i’r digwyddiad penodol hwn. Yn y misoedd diwethaf, gwelsom drychinebau eraill yn y gweithle lle mae dynion a menywod wedi colli eu bywydau tra’n gwneud eu gwaith. Mae’r digwyddiad diweddar hwn yn ein hatgoffa o’n hanes ni i gyd a’n cysylltiadau agos â’r diwydiant mwyngloddio, nad yw’n bell iawn yn ôl. Yn wir, fy nhad oedd y dyn cyntaf yn ei deulu i beidio â gorfod mynd i lawr y pwll. Mae’n ein cysylltu ni i gyd, a dyna pam yr ydym wedi gweld yr ymateb hwn, oherwydd mae’r digwyddiad yn ein hatgoffa o’n hanes cyffredin ac o’r ffaith na ddylai unrhyw ddyn orfod mynd i’r gwaith, beth bynnag fo’r diwydiant, a pheidio â dychwelyd adref yn ddiogel at ei deulu.

The First Minister: There is no timescale yet for any investigation: it is a matter for those authorities with responsibility for conducting the investigation. When a report is available, I am sure that Members will take a deep interest in it.

Y Prif Weinidog: Nid oes amserlen eto ar gyfer unrhyw ymchwiliad: mae’n fater ar gyfer yr awdurdodau hynny sy’n gyfrifol am gynnal yr ymchwiliad. Pan fydd adroddiad ar gael, yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd gan Aelodau ddiddordeb mawr ynddo.

The leader of the Welsh Liberal Democrats has outlined an important issue. So many of us in this Chamber come from a mining background. In my family, I represent the first generation in four not to have any miners in it. Men in my family have worked underground for over a century, and my position is no different from that of many others. We know that mining still has the capacity to touch the heart and strike a chord, not just in the south and the north-east of Wales, but around the world. We saw coverage of the tragedy around the world, and messages of support for the families and the community came from around the world.

Mae arweinydd Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru wedi amlinellu mater pwysig. Mae cynifer ohonom yn y Siambr hon yn dod o gefndir glofaol. Yn fy nheulu i, yr wyf i’n cynrychioli’r genhedlaeth gyntaf mewn pedair i beidio â chynnwys unrhyw lowyr. Mae dynion yn fy nheulu i wedi gweithio dan ddaear am dros ganrif, ac nid yw fy sefyllfa i yn wahanol i nifer o bobl eraill. Gwyddom fod mwyngloddio yn dal i allu cyffwrdd â’r galon a tharo tant, nid yn unig yn y de a’r gogledd-ddwyrain, ond ledled y byd. Darlledwyd y drasiedi o amgylch y byd, a daeth negeseuon o gefnogaeth i’r teuluoedd a’r gymuned o bob cwr o’r byd.

It is true to say that the response of the local community was astonishing in terms of the support that it gave to those families at a time of great trial for them. This was mentioned to me when I visited the families at a difficult time, on the Friday morning, when they knew that one of the miners had been killed, but not which one—three families had yet to know. Unfortunately, the news got more difficult and tragic as the day went on. The one thing that they can be sure of, however, is that, even at this difficult time, when they are still only just beginning to grieve as families, they have so many people, within Wales and from around the world, standing shoulder to shoulder with them, thinking of them and remembering them in their prayers.

Mae’n wir i ddweud bod ymateb y gymuned leol yn syfrdanol o ran y cymorth a roddwyd i’r teuluoedd ar gyfnod anodd iawn iddynt. Soniwyd am hyn wrthyf pan ymwelais â’r teuluoedd ar adeg anodd, ar y bore Gwener, pan oeddent yn gwybod fod un o’r glowyr wedi’i ladd, ond nid pa un—roedd tri theulu eto i wybod. Yn anffodus, daeth y newyddion yn fwy anodd a thrasig wrth i’r dydd fynd yn ei flaen. Yr un peth y gallant fod yn siŵr ohono, fodd bynnag, hyd yn oed ar yr adeg anodd hon, wrth iddynt ddechrau galaru fel teuluoedd, yw bod cynifer o bobl, yng Nghymru ac ar draws y byd, yn sefyll ysgwydd yn ysgwydd â hwy, yn meddwl amdanynt ac yn eu cofio yn eu gweddïau.

Gwenda Thomas: Diolch i chi, Brif Weinidog, am y datganiad, ac am eich presenoldeb yng nghymunedau Rhos a Chilybebyll. Mae’r digwyddiad yng ngwaith glo’r Gleision wedi bod yn ergyd ofnadwy, i’r teuluoedd yn bennaf, a hefyd i’r gymuned, i fy etholaeth ac yn ehangach. Mae’n iawn bod ymchwiliad, ond yr wyf yn cytuno â chi bod yn rhaid i ni aros am y canlyniadau. Bore yma, bûm yn Ysgol Gyfun Ystalyfera lle mae dau o’r disgyblion, Alex a Scott, wedi colli tad. Yr oedd bod ymhlith y plant a’r bobl ifanc yn rhoi hwb i’r galon oherwydd yr wyf yn credu, cyn belled ag y mae’r ysgol yn y cwestiwn, bod y plant a’r bobl ifanc yn gwybod sut i ymateb.

Gwenda Thomas: Thank you, First Minister, for the statement, and for your presence in the communities of Rhos and Cilybebyll. The incident at the Gleision coalmine has been a terrible blow, for the families chiefly, but also for the community, my constituency and further afield. It is right that there should be an investigation, but I agree with you that we must wait for the results of that. This morning, I was at Ysgol Gyfun Ystalyfera where two of the pupils, Alex and Scott, have lost their father. Being among the children and young people cheered me up because I believe, as far as the school is concerned, that the children and young people know how to respond.

I would like to reflect on the resilience of the families. It was a very long wait in Rhos Community Hall; the atmosphere changed from hope to deeper and deeper anxiety, and then to dread—absolute dread. However, there was still a little girl playing with her toys on the floor of that hall. In latter years, we have become more relaxed about the impact of pit tragedies. We are no longer living daily with the fear of a mining tragedy as they had, to a degree, become a thing of the past. This tragedy has, however, brought back very painful memories to many of us. Those memories have also brought a closeness to our communities. That was the way we were. First Minister, you have mentioned the cave rescue team, the divers and the mines rescue service. The mines rescue service was a familiar sight in our communities not very long ago and I think that it brought a reality to the situation to see it there once again. You also mentioned the fire and rescue service, the police and the ambulance service, all of whom of course had families of their own who were thinking about them. Also involved were the WRVS, the Red Cross, social services, individuals and businesses. A community spirit of support has been very real and abiding in this part of the Neath constituency. We think of the tragic death of the little boy and we also remember the dreadful murders of Catherine and Ben Mullany. Support for the families of the Gleision miners—the miners who lost their lives and the three who were able to escape, one of whom is being treated for his injuries in hospital—is local and widespread. I am sure, First Minister, that you will agree that we must now offer our support, our condolences and sympathies, but we must also now respect the need of the families to grieve.

Hoffwn fyfyrio ar hydwythdedd y teuluoedd. Roedd yr aros yn hir iawn yn Neuadd Gymuned Rhos; newidiodd yr awyrgylch o obaith i bryder dyfnach a dyfnach, ac yna i  arswyd—arswyd llwyr. Fodd bynnag, roedd merch fach yn dal i chwarae gyda’i theganau ar lawr y neuadd honno. Yn ddiweddar, rydym wedi dod yn fwy hamddenol am effaith trychinebau pwll. Bellach, nid ydym yn byw bob dydd gydag ofn trychineb lofaol achos yr oeddent, i raddau, wedi dod yn rhywbeth oedd yn perthyn i’r gorffennol. Fodd bynnag, mae’r drasiedi hon wedi dod ag atgofion poenus iawn yn ôl i lawer ohonom. Mae’r atgofion hynny hefyd wedi dod ag agosrwydd i’n cymunedau. Dyna sut oedd pethau. Brif Weinidog, rydych wedi crybwyll y tîm achub ogofâu, y deifwyr a’r gwasanaeth achub glofeydd. Heb fod yn hir yn ôl, roedd y gwasanaeth achub glofeydd yn olygfa gyfarwydd yn ein cymunedau ac rwy’n credu bod ei weld yno eto wedi dod â realiti i’r sefyllfa. Sonioch hefyd am y gwasanaeth tân ac achub, yr heddlu a’r gwasanaeth ambiwlans, ac roedd gan bob un ohonynt, wrth gwrs, deuluoedd eu hunain a oedd yn meddwl amdanynt. Yno hefyd roedd y WRVS, y Groes Goch, gwasanaethau cymdeithasol, unigolion a busnesau. Bu ysbryd cymunedol o gymorth gwirioneddol a diysgog yn y rhan hon o etholaeth Castell-nedd. Rydym yn meddwl am farwolaeth drasig y bachgen bach a chofiwn hefyd am lofruddiaethau ofnadwy Catherine a Ben Mullany. Mae cymorth ar gyfer teuluoedd glowyr y Gleision—y glowyr a gollodd eu bywydau a’r tri a lwyddodd i ddianc, ac un ohonynt yn cael ei drin am ei anafiadau yn yr ysbyty—yn lleol ac yn eang. Yr wyf yn siŵr, Brif Weinidog, y byddwch yn cytuno bod yn rhaid inni bellach gynnig ein cefnogaeth a’n cydymdeimlad, ond, bellach, rhaid inni hefyd barchu angen y teuluoedd i alaru.

The First Minister: I listened carefully to what Gwenda Thomas said and she was one of those who spent much time with the families during the very difficult experiences that they went through on Thursday and Friday. She mentioned the mine and cave rescue teams. There is one comment that I remember vividly from Friday. I went to thank the mines rescue team that was made up, in the main, of men who worked in the Aberpergwm drift mine in the Neath valley for the work that they were putting in and one of them said to me, ‘It’s not a question of being thanked; there’s a man down there who’s 62 years old and if he’s prepared to go down there and work at 62, then I’m prepared to find him and I’ll carry on until I do find him’. For me, that summed up in a few very short sentences the determination of the mines rescue teams and all the other people who were there who put so much effort into finding the men.

Y Prif Weinidog: Gwrandewais yn astud ar yr hyn a ddywedodd Gwenda Thomas ac roedd hi’n un o’r rhai a dreuliodd lawer o amser gyda’r teuluoedd yn ystod y profiadau anodd iawn yr aethant drwyddynt ddydd Iau a dydd Gwener. Soniodd am dimau achub pyllau ac ogofâu. Mae un sylw yr wyf yn ei gofio’n glir o ddydd Gwener. Euthum i ddiolch i dîm achub y pyllau glo a oedd yn cynnwys, ar y cyfan, ddynion sy’n gweithio yng nghloddfa ddrifft Aberpergwm yng nghwm Nedd, am y gwaith yr oeddent yn ei wneud ac fe ddywedodd un ohonynt wrthyf, ‘Nid mater o gael diolch ydyw; mae yna ddyn i lawr yna sydd yn 62 oed ac os yw e’n barod i fynd i lawr yna a gweithio yn 62 oed, yna yr wyf i’n barod i ddod o hyd iddo a byddaf yn dal ati nes y dof o hyd iddo’. I mi, roedd hynny’n crynhoi mewn ychydig frawddegau byr iawn benderfyniad timau achub y pyllau a’r holl bobl eraill a oedd yno a wnaeth gymaint o ymdrech i ddod o hyd i’r dynion.

Suzy Davies: I take this opportunity to thank the First Minister and everyone else who has made a contribution today. We all find it difficult to talk about the tragic events of last week. Everyone was stunned and saddened by the unexpected turn of events at the Gleision mine on Thursday and Friday. The villages of the Swansea and Neath valleys have responded to the loss of their friends with warmth, generosity and unity. That may come as no surprise because these are places where the word ‘community’ still means something and where friendships with neighbours and responsibility for each other is a part of everyday life. The wider world has been inspired by that strength and closeness to express its own regret and sympathy to the families of those who died.

Suzy Davies: Cymeraf y cyfle hwn i ddiolch i’r Prif Weinidog a phawb arall a gyfrannodd heddiw. Rydym i gyd yn ei chael yn anodd i siarad am ddigwyddiadau trasig yr wythnos diwethaf. Cafodd pawb eu syfrdanu a’u tristhau gan y digwyddiadau annisgwyl ym mhwll y Gleision ddydd Iau a dydd Gwener. Mae pentrefi Cwm Tawe a Chwm Nedd wedi ymateb i golli eu ffrindiau yn gynnes, yn hael a chydag undod. Efallai nad yw hynny’n syndod, gan fod y rhain yn lleoedd lle mae’r gair ‘cymuned’ yn dal i olygu rhywbeth a lle mae cyfeillgarwch rhwng cymdogion a chyfrifoldeb at ei gilydd yn rhan o fywyd bob dydd. Mae’r byd ehangach wedi cael ei ysbrydoli gan y cryfder a’r agosatrwydd hwnnw i fynegi ei ofid a chydymdeimlad â theuluoedd y rhai a fu farw.

However, in whatever way we have all been affected by this terrible news, there are four families who are experiencing this as an intensely painful and completely personal tragedy. These are four families who had to endure the interminable wait for information, knowing that events were unfolding before cameras and microphones, and who finally faced the worst of truths. I pay tribute to those families. They were kind enough to speak not only to all their friends, but to strangers who came to see them with little to offer but words. How many times did they have to suspend their anxiety to try to put others at ease during those 36 hours or so? The dignity and bravery of those families have been humbling and a privilege to witness. The very least that we can do for those families, and for the survivors and their families, is to allow them the privacy that they have asked for. 

Fodd bynnag, waeth pa ffordd yr ydym i gyd wedi cael ein heffeithio gan y newyddion ofnadwy, mae pedwar o deuluoedd yn profi hyn fel trychineb hynod boenus a hollol bersonol. Dyma bedwar teulu a oedd yn gorfod dioddef aros maith am wybodaeth, gan wybod fod y digwyddiadau yn datblygu o flaen camerâu a meicroffonau, cyn gorfod wynebu’r gwirionedd gwaethaf. Talaf deyrnged i’r teuluoedd hynny. Roeddent yn ddigon caredig i siarad nid yn unig â’u holl ffrindiau, ond â dieithriaid a ddaeth i’w gweld gydag ychydig i’w gynnig ond geiriau. Sawl gwaith y bu’n rhaid iddynt atal eu pryder eu hunain er mwyn  ceisio cysuro pobl eraill yn ystod y 36 awr hynny? Roedd urddas a dewrder diymhongar y teuluoedd hynny yn fraint i’w weld. Y peth lleiaf y gallwn ei wneud i’r teuluoedd hynny, a’r goroeswyr a’u teuluoedd, yw caniatáu’r preifatrwydd y maent wedi ofyn amdano. 

The work of the miners rescue and emergency services remind us that people risk their lives for us and for others and that we take that for granted. I join in the tributes to the courageous teams who put themselves in danger last week. No more could have been asked of them.

Mae gwaith y gwasanaeth achub glowyr a’r gwasanaethau argyfwng yn ein hatgoffa bod pobl yn peryglu eu bywydau i ni ac eraill a’n bod yn cymryd hynny’n ganiataol. Ymunaf yn y teyrngedau i’r timau dewr a roddodd eu hunain mewn perygl yr wythnos diwethaf. Ni ellid bod wedi gofyn mwy ohonynt.

I hope that the First Minister agrees that our contribution to the healing of these wounds is to insist on improvements to safety procedures. If we can make life safer for our rescue services, then we must do so. With increased interest in the south Wales coalfield, we must make life safer for those who extract fuel from it. It will not help to dwell on the past; this is a failing of today and a clear and present danger that must not become part of our future. I hope that the health and safety investigation will give the families the answers that they need. I also hope that it will direct us on the best way to improve safety in this inherently dangerous industry. 

Gobeithio y bydd y Prif Weinidog yn cytuno mai ein cyfraniad ni i wella’r clwyfau hyn yw mynnu gwelliannau i weithdrefnau diogelwch. Os gallwn wneud bywyd yn fwy diogel i’n gwasanaethau achub, yna mae’n rhaid inni wneud hynny. Gyda mwy o ddiddordeb ym maes glo de Cymru, mae’n rhaid inni wneud bywyd yn fwy diogel i’r rhai sy’n echdynnu tanwydd ohono. Ni fydd meddwl gormod am y gorffennol yn helpu; methiant heddiw yw hwn, ac mae’n berygl clir na ddylai fod yn rhan o’n dyfodol. Gobeithio y bydd yr ymchwiliad iechyd a diogelwch yn rhoi’r atebion sydd eu hangen ar y teuluoedd. Gobeithio hefyd y bydd yr ymchwiliad yn ein cyfeirio at y ffordd orau i wella diogelwch yn y diwydiant hwn, sydd, o ran ei natur, yn un peryglus. 

The First Minister: There must be answers, of course, but it is important not to speculate on what happened, even though it is perfectly natural to seek answers and to seek them quickly. There must be a full investigation. All the appropriate authorities are involved in that investigation. It is important that we wait to find out what that investigation reveals in order to ensure that, if there are lessons to be learned, that is what will happen.

Y Prif Weinidog: Mae’n rhaid cael atebion, wrth gwrs, ond mae’n bwysig peidio â dyfalu ynghylch yr hyn a ddigwyddodd, er ei fod yn hollol naturiol i chwilio am atebion, a hynny yn gyflym. Mae’n rhaid cael ymchwiliad llawn. Mae pob un o’r awdurdodau priodol yn rhan o’r ymchwiliad hwnnw. Mae’n bwysig ein bod yn aros i gael gwybod beth y bydd yr ymchwiliad yn ei ddatgelu, er mwyn sicrhau, os oes gwersi i’w dysgu, mai dyna beth fydd yn digwydd.

Bethan Jenkins: Diolch am y datganiad heddiw.

Bethan Jenkins: Thank you for the statement today.

I will start by quoting Bob Williams, the Mayor of Pontardawe, who said over the weekend about what happened at the Gleision mine:

Dechreuaf drwy ddyfynnu Bob Williams, Maer Pontardawe, a ddywedodd dros y penwythnos am yr hyn a ddigwyddodd ym mhwll Gleision:

‘When we walk past this place, we will think of tonight and we will remember them. We are here together as friends, family, neighbours and as a community, to remember four brave men and their grieving families. Time may heal the pain, but will never take away the memories’.

Pan fyddwn yn cerdded heibio’r lle hwn, byddwn yn meddwl am heno ac yn eu cofio. Rydym yma gyda’n gilydd fel ffrindiau, teulu, cymdogion ac fel cymuned, i gofio pedwar o ddynion dewr a’u teuluoedd sydd mewn galar. Gall amser leihau’r boen, ond ni fydd byth yn cael gwared ar yr atgofion.

Those words, spoken at the vigil that we held on Sunday night, sums up succinctly the tragedy and the effect it has had on the community of Pontardawe. As others have mentioned today, it seems so tragic, when so many of the arguments that we have in the Siambr are bound up in how we get Wales to work again, all these decades after the heavy industries that made and sustained this country began to desert us, that the coal industry would come back to haunt us again in this way.

Mae’r geiriau hynny, o’r wylnos nos Sul, yn crynhoi’r drychineb a’r effaith a gafodd ar gymuned Pontardawe. Fel y mae eraill wedi’i grybwyll heddiw, mae’n ymddangos mor drasig, pan fo cynifer o’r dadleuon a gawn yn y Siambr hon yn ymwneud â sut i gael Cymru yn ôl i weithio, ddegawdau ers i’r diwydiannau trwm a’n gwnaeth ac a’n cynhaliodd ddechrau ein gadael, bod y diwydiant glo yn dod yn ôl i aflonyddu arnom eto yn y ffordd hon.

As many of us have said, our focus must remain on the families of those men who have lost their lives, and on supporting them and the people who are looking after them. I also take the opportunity to pay tribute to the communities of Cilybebyll, Rhos, Godre’r-graig, Resolven, Pontardawe and the rest of the Swansea valley, whose families and communities have come together to help the families concerned.

Fel mae nifer ohonom wedi dweud, mae’n rhaid inni gadw ein ffocws ar deuluoedd y dynion sydd wedi colli eu bywydau, gan eu cefnogi, yn ogystal â’r bobl sy’n gofalu amdanynt. Rwyf hefyd yn cymryd y cyfle i dalu teyrnged i gymunedau Cilybebyll, Rhos, Godre’r-graig, Resolfen, Pontardawe a gweddill Cwm Tawe; mae teuluoedd a chymunedau’r ardal wedi dod at ei gilydd i helpu’r teuluoedd dan sylw.

I am fortunate enough to live in one of the communities in the area and it has been humbling to see how people have come together. At the time of the accident, I was at my home. There is no protocol for events such as this, so I went up, as Gwenda Thomas and others did, to see how the families were. It is difficult, because you do not want to impinge on their time and their problems, but you want to tell them that you are there for them. It would be good if many of us could go and be there for the families, because this is not going to go away in the next few months or even years; it will be with them forever. In the meantime, we need to let the families grieve. We have set up a miners’ fund, which many of us are now patrons of. As Assembly Members, one positive thing that we can do is to give money to that fund for the families so we can look forward positively to the future.

Yr wyf yn ddigon ffodus i fyw yn un o’r cymunedau yn yr ardal ac mae wedi bod yn brofiad wylaidd i weld sut mae pobl wedi dod at ei gilydd. Pan ddigwyddodd y ddamwain, yr oeddwn yn fy nghartref. Nid oes protocol ar gyfer digwyddiadau fel hyn, felly euthum i, fel y gwnaeth Gwenda Thomas ac eraill, i weld sut oedd y teuluoedd. Mae’n anodd, gan nad ydych eisiau tresmasu ar eu hamser a’u problemau, ond rydych am ddweud wrthynt eich bod yno ar eu cyfer. Byddai’n dda pe gallai llawer ohonom fod yno ar gyfer y teuluoedd, gan na fydd hyn yn mynd i ffwrdd dros yr ychydig fisoedd neu hyd yn oed flynyddoedd nesaf; bydd yno am byth. Yn y cyfamser, mae angen i ni adael i’r teuluoedd alaru. Rydym wedi sefydlu cronfa lowyr, y mae llawer ohonom bellach yn noddwyr iddi. Fel Aelodau’r Cynulliad, un peth cadarnhaol y gallwn ei wneud yw rhoi arian i’r gronfa ar gyfer y teuluoedd fel y gallwn edrych ymlaen yn gadarnhaol i’r dyfodol.

I will finish, as Gwenda Thomas did, by commemorating the life of Harry Patterson. We have had quite a lot of tragedies in our area in recent times, and I hope that this will be the last one for the foreseeable future.

Yr wyf am gloi, fel y gwnaeth Gwenda Thomas, trwy goffáu bywyd Harry Patterson. Rydym wedi cael cryn dipyn o drasiedïau yn ein hardal yn ddiweddar, ac yr wyf yn gobeithio mai hon fydd yr olaf am sbel.

2.00 p.m.

Peter Black: I join the other Members in expressing my sadness and condolences to the families of the miners who so tragically lost their lives. I also thank the emergency services and the mine rescue team, whose commitment and dedication was unquestionable. They worked tirelessly, and we cannot express too much of our admiration for the work that they put in to find the miners as quickly as possible. It is a tragedy that they were not able to pull the miners out alive.

Peter Black: Ymunaf â’r Aelodau eraill wrth fynegi fy nhristwch a chydymdeimlad â theuluoedd y glowyr a gollodd eu bywydau mewn amgylchiadau mor drasig.  Diolch hefyd i’r gwasanaethau brys a’r tîm achub pwll glo, y mae eu hymrwymiad a’u hymroddiad yn ddiamheuol. Roedd eu gwaith yn ddiflino, ac nid ydym yn gallu mynegi gormod o’n hedmygedd am y gwaith a wnaethant i ddod o hyd i’r glowyr cyn gynted ag y bo modd. Mae’n drasiedi nad oeddent yn gallu tynnu’r glowyr allan yn fyw.

What came out of this for me was the strength of the communities involved, and the way that they came together to support the families by offering their sympathies and practical help. Coal flows through the veins of these communities, and has done so for many decades—perhaps for a century or more. As the First Minister said in his statement, nobody expected to have to cope with another tragedy of this kind. The fact that everyone came together and reacted in the way that they did is important to those communities.

Yr hyn a ddaeth yn amlwg i mi o hyn oedd cryfder y cymunedau dan sylw, a’r ffordd y daethant at ei gilydd i gefnogi’r teuluoedd trwy gynnig eu cydymdeimlad a chymorth ymarferol.  Mae glo yn llifo drwy wythiennau’r cymunedau hyn, ac wedi gwneud hynny ers degawdau—efallai am ganrif neu fwy. Fel y dywedodd y Prif Weinidog yn ei ddatganiad, nid oedd neb yn disgwyl gorfod ymdopi â thrasiedi arall o’r math hwn. Mae’r ffaith bod pawb wedi dod at ei gilydd ac ymateb yn y ffordd y gwnaethant yn bwysig i’r cymunedau hynny.

I echo Bethan Jenkins’s remarks in relation to the fund that has been set up. That fund is important, and I am pleased that the UK Government is, in effect, adding 25 per cent to the contributions made towards it. It is important that this Chamber sends out a message to people to commit as much as they can to the fund, because the money that it raises will be important in helping the families.

Ategaf sylwadau Bethan Jenkins am y gronfa sydd wedi ei sefydlu. Mae’r gronfa honno yn bwysig, ac yr wyf yn falch bod Llywodraeth y DU, i bob pwrpas, yn ychwanegu 25 y cant at y cyfraniadau a wnaed tuag ato. Mae’n bwysig bod y Siambr hon yn anfon neges i bobl i ymrwymo gymaint ag y gallant i’r gronfa, gan y bydd yr arian y mae’n ei godi yn bwysig wrth helpu’r teuluoedd.

Byron Davies: I am grateful for the opportunity to contribute. The heartbreaking events of last week are a tragic reminder of the enormous risks constantly facing those who work underground. Although it is small-scale operation, the exposure to danger at Gleision colliery is an inevitable ingredient of the industry, particularly given the physical method of mining employed at the small drift mine. At present, we can only speculate about how this tragedy occurred. It would be wrong to draw any conclusions from such speculation. We must await the findings of the joint investigation by South Wales Police, the Health and Safety Executive and the Wales Office into the cause of the accident in the colliery at Cilybebyll.

Byron Davies: Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am y cyfle i gyfrannu. Mae digwyddiadau torcalonnus yr wythnos diwethaf yn ein hatgoffa yn drasig o’r risgiau enfawr sydd yn gyson wynebu’r rhai sy’n gweithio o dan y ddaear. Er ei bod yn gweithredu ar raddfa fach, mae’r amlygiad i berygl yng nglofa Gleision yn elfen anochel o’r diwydiant, yn enwedig o ystyried y dull ffisegol o fwyngloddio a ddefnyddir yn y pwll drifft bach. Ar hyn o bryd, ni allwn ond dyfalu sut y digwyddodd y drychineb hon. Ni fyddai’n iawn i ddod i unrhyw gasgliadau o ddyfalu o’r fath. Mae’n rhaid i ni aros am ganfyddiadau’r ymchwiliad ar y cyd gan Heddlu De Cymru, yr Awdurdod Gweithredol Iechyd a Diogelwch a Swyddfa Cymru i achos y ddamwain yn y lofa yng Nghilybebyll.

Tragically, we have become accustomed in Wales, given our mining past, to receiving such dreadful news from time to time. I remember well that awful day, 21 October 1966, when, as a young boy, I was summoned with the rest of my school to the assembly hall and told of the horrific events that had just occurred in Aberfan. Those of us in the hall felt numb as events unfolded on the television screen before us. Last Friday, in a similar vein, I listened intently to the news, hoping and praying that a positive outcome would be announced, but sadly this was not to be.

Yn drasig, yr ydym wedi dod i arfer yng Nghymru, o ystyried ein gorffennol mwyngloddio, â derbyn newyddion ofnadwy o’r fath o bryd i’w gilydd. Yr wyf yn cofio yn dda’r diwrnod ofnadwy, Hydref 21, 1966, pan, yn fachgen ifanc, cefais fy ngalw, gyda gweddill fy ysgol, i neuadd ymgynnull i glywed am y digwyddiadau erchyll a oedd newydd ddigwydd yn Aberfan.  Yr oedd y rhai ohonom yn y neuadd yn teimlo’n ddiffrwyth wrth i ddigwyddiadau ddatblygu ar y sgrin deledu o’n blaen. Ddydd Gwener diwethaf, yn yr un modd, gwrandewais yn astud ar y newyddion, gan obeithio a gweddïo y byddai canlyniad cadarnhaol yn cael ei gyhoeddi, ond yn anffodus nid oedd hyn i fod.

I, too, want to put on record my thanks to the rescue services: the mines rescue services, the Mid and West Wales Fire and Rescue Service, the police, ambulance services and the many others involved to whom we owe a great debt of gratitude. Major incident scenes of this magnitude require true professionals. We are fortunately blessed with the best in this respect.

Yr wyf fi, hefyd, yn awyddus i gofnodi fy niolch i’r gwasanaethau achub: y gwasanaethau achub pyllau glo, Gwasanaeth Tân ac Achub Gorllewin Cymru a’r Canolbarth a’r heddlu, gwasanaethau ambiwlans a’r nifer o bobl eraill dan sylw y mae gennym ddyled fawr o ddiolchgarwch iddynt. Y mae digwyddiadau o bwys o’r maint hwn yn gofyn am weithwyr gwir broffesiynol. Yn ffodus, rydym wedi ein bendithio gyda’r gorau yn hyn o beth.

Above all, I am saddened that this tragedy has occurred. I convey my sincere condolences to the families of Charles Breslin, Phillip Hill, Garry Jenkins and David Powell. My thoughts are also with Malcolm Fyfield as he recovers in Morriston Hospital, and with the others who, though they escaped injury, will doubtless be scarred by the experience. I know that, in the true tradition of the area, the communities in and around Pontardawe will support the families in their loss, now and in the years to come. However, it is incumbent on us all to ensure that the families are catered for in their needs, both welfare and financial. It is my fervent hope that the findings of the inquiry will assist them with coming to terms with this tragic loss and help to prevent other such disasters in the future.

Yn anad dim, yr wyf yn drist bod y drychineb hon wedi digwydd. Rwyf yn cyfleu fy nghydymdeimlad diffuant i deuluoedd Charles Breslin, Phillip Hill, Garry Jenkins a David Powell. Mae fy meddyliau hefyd gyda Malcolm Fyfield wrth iddo ddod ato’i hun yn Ysbyty Treforys, a chydag eraill a fydd, er eu bod wedi osgoi anaf, wedi eu creithio gan y profiad. Gwn y bydd y cymunedau ym Mhontardawe a chyfagos, yng ngwir draddodiad yr ardal, yn cefnogi’r teuluoedd yn eu colled, yn awr ac yn y blynyddoedd i ddod. Fodd bynnag, mae’n ddyletswydd ar bob un ohonom i sicrhau y darperir ar gyfer anghenion y teuluoedd,  o ran lles ac yn ariannol. Fy ngobaith brwd yw y bydd canfyddiadau’r ymchwiliad yn eu cynorthwyo i ddod i delerau â’r golled drasig hon ac yn helpu i atal trychinebau eraill o’r fath yn y dyfodol.

The Presiding Officer: I thank you all for those moving tributes in that well-paced debate.

Y Llywydd: Diolch yn fawr i chi gyd am y teyrngedau teimladwy yn y ddadl sionc honno.

Aled Roberts: Yr wyf innau’n croesawu cyhoeddiad neithiwr, ond a oes unrhyw wybodaeth ynglŷn â’r amserlen ar gyfer sefydlu’r ardaloedd hyn?

Aled Roberts: I also welcome yesterday evening’s announcement, but is there any information about the timetable for establishing these zones?

Prif Weinidog: Byddwn yn bwrw ymlaen i sicrhau bod yr ardaloedd hyn yn cael eu sefydlu cyn gynted ag y bo modd, ond mae’n bwysig ein bod yn cael mwy o wybodaeth am lwfansau cyfalaf i sicrhau pecyn mwy cynhwysfawr. Rhaid wrth y manylion hynny gan y Trysorlys, ond hyd yma, nid ydynt wedi dod.

First Minister: We will proceed with this to ensure that these zones are established as soon as possible, but it is important that we get information about capital allowances so that we can provide a comprehensive package. We need those details from the Treasury, and, to date, they have not been made available.

The First Minister: Yes, very much so. I know that a lot of work was done by community workers in Cardiff and by the police and that, as a result of that work, we saw very few incidents in Wales, and certainly nothing more than could be expected on any night of the week.

Y Prif Weinidog: Ydw, yn llwyr. Gwn fod llawer o waith yn cael ei wneud gan weithwyr cymunedol yng Nghaerdydd a chan yr heddlu ac, o ganlyniad i’r gwaith hwnnw, gwelsom ychydig iawn o achosion yng Nghymru, ac yn sicr dim byd mwy nag y gellid ei ddisgwyl ar unrhyw noson o’r wythnos .

Byron Davies: I am sure that you will join me in paying tribute to the Welsh police officers who demonstrated a great deal of respect for the Metropolitan Police Service and local communities in their participation in policing the riots and subsequent activity. Do you agree that an excess of social interference by the previous Government and its quangos in Westminster has led to a confused and broken society, with the police, as always in my experience, left to pick up the pieces? How does your Government propose to address this in Wales?

Byron Davies: Yr wyf yn siŵr y byddwch yn ymuno â mi i dalu teyrnged i swyddogion yr heddlu yng Nghymru a oedd yn dangos llawer iawn o barch at Wasanaeth Heddlu y Metropolitan a chymunedau lleol o ran eu rhan yn plismona’r terfysgoedd a gweithgarwch dilynol. A ydych yn cytuno bod gormod o ymyrraeth gymdeithasol gan y Llywodraeth flaenorol a’i chwangos yn San Steffan wedi arwain at gymdeithas ddryslyda thoredig, gyda’r heddlu, fel bob amser yn fy mhrofiad i, yn cael ei gadael i godi’r darnau? Sut mae eich Llywodraeth yn bwriadu mynd i’r afael â hyn yng Nghymru?

The First Minister: Let me see if I can get this right: you are saying that the riots in England in the summer were caused by quangos. I cannot quite work out where that question is coming from. The reality is this: if we had a Government at the UK level that was committed to the police, then it would be committed to maintaining police numbers; yet we know that the UK Government wishes to slash police numbers across England and Wales. If there was a true commitment to fighting crime on the part of the UK Government, it would not keep police numbers as they are, but increase them, which is just what the previous UK Government did.

Y Prif Weinidog: Gadewch i mi weld os gallaf gael hyn yn iawn: yr ydych yn dweud bod y terfysgoedd yn Lloegr yn yr haf wedi cael eu hachosi gan gwangos. Ni allaf weithio allan o ble mae’r cwestiwn hwnnw’n dod. Y realiti yw hyn: pe bai gennym Lywodraeth ar lefel y DU a oedd wedi ymrwymo i’r heddlu, yna byddai wedi ymrwymo i gynnal niferoedd yr heddlu; eto gwyddom bod Llywodraeth y DU yn dymuno torri niferoedd yr heddlu ledled Cymru a Lloegr. Os oedd ymrwymiad gwirioneddol i ymladd troseddau ar ran Llywodraeth y DU, ni fyddai’n cadw niferoedd yr heddlu fel y maent, ond yn eu cynyddu, sef yr hyn a wnaeth Llywodraeth flaenorol y DU.

Vaughan Gething: I share Julie Morgan’s support and admiration for the youth service in Cardiff and for the work that it did in ensuring that we did not see a repeat of the riots in English cities here in Wales. However, do you agree with others that this was not simply a criminal outburst, but that underlying causes led to the civil disturbances? Do you agree that one of the major factors is the record level of youth unemployment, and that we have to ensure that does not turn into a lost generation, which would pose a greater risk of a repeat of the sort of civil disorder and loss of hope that we have seen in England?

Vaughan Gething: Rwyf yn rhannu cefnogaeth ac edmygedd Julie Morgan at y gwasanaeth ieuenctid yng Nghaerdydd ac am y gwaith a wnaeth i sicrhau na welsom ailadrodd y terfysgoedd yn ninasoedd Lloegr yma yng Nghymru. Fodd bynnag, a gytunwch ag eraill nad ffrwydrad troseddol yn unig oedd hwn, ond bod achosion sylfaenol wedi arwain at yr aflonyddwch sifil? A ydych yn cytuno mai un o’r ffactorau mawr yw’r lefel uchaf erioed o ddiweithdra ymhlith pobl ifanc, a bod yn rhaid inni sicrhau nad yw’n troi i mewn i genhedlaeth goll, a fyddai’n peri mwy o risg o ailadrodd y math o anhrefn sifil a cholli gobaith a welsom yn Lloegr?

The First Minister: Youth unemployment is a serious problem for us, but it is right to say that the majority of the riots were caused simply by people intent on creating mayhem. We saw a large number of criminal acts, and one of the things that struck me was the number of people arrested and subsequently brought to the magistrates’ court who were in good employment. The reality is that to ensure that riots like this do not happen again, there is a need to maintain, or indeed to increase, police numbers rather than reduce them as the UK Government plans.

Y Prif Weinidog: Mae diweithdra ymhlith pobl ifanc yn broblem ddifrifol i ni, ond mae’n iawn dweud bod y rhan fwyaf o’r terfysgoedd wedi eu hachosi gan bobl a oedd yn  benderfynol o greu anhrefn. Gwelsom nifer fawr o weithredoedd troseddol, ac un o’r pethau a’m trawodd oedd nifer y bobl a arestiwyd ac wedyn eu dwyn i lys yr ynadon a oedd mewn swyddi da. Y realiti yw er mwyn sicrhau nad yw terfysgoedd fel hyn yn digwydd eto, mae angen cynnal, neu yn wir gynyddu niferoedd yr heddlu yn hytrach na’u lleihau fel y mae Llywodraeth y DU yn fwriadu.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas: Cytunaf â dau o’r pethau yr ydych wedi’u dweud ar y mater hwn. Er inni ymfalchïo yn y ffaith na ddigwyddodd unrhyw fath o wrthdrawiad mawr yng Nghymru yr adeg honno, iawn yw bod yn wyliadwrus o’r sefyllfa a chanmol y gwaith cymunedol a wnaethpwyd i ddwyn pobl at ei gilydd ac i geisio sicrhau cymod yn ein cymunedau. Cytunaf hefyd â’r modd yr ydych wedi gwrthod priodoli’r terfysgoedd hyn i un rheswm yn unig, oherwydd mae perygl inni geisio darllen rhywbeth arall i mewn i’r digwyddiadau hyn. Fel yr ydych wedi dweud, mae llawer iawn mwy i hyn. A gytunwch fod yn rhaid inni fod yn wyliadwrus o fudiadau megis Cynghrair Amddiffyn Lloegr a Chynghrair Amddiffyn Cymru sydd wedi bod yn gweithredu yn ein cymunedau gan geisio creu gwrthdrawiadau, a bod rhaid inni fod yn wyliadwrus o oblygiadau gweithgareddau grwpiau felly?

Rhodri Glyn Thomas: I agree with two of the things that you have said in your response. While we take pride in the fact that there was no major conflict of this kind in Wales on this ocassion, it is right that we are cautious and praise the community work that has been done to bring people together and to try to bring reconciliation to our communities. I also agree with your refusal to blame these riots on one issue, because there is a danger that we try to read something elso into these events. As you said, there is much more to it. Do you agree that we need to be wary of organisations such as the English Defence League and the Welsh Defence League that have been active in our communities, trying to whip up conflict, and that we need to be vigilant as to the implications of the activities of such groups?

Y Prif Weinidog: Neges casineb yw neges y cyrff hynny, wrth gwrs, a rhaid inni wrthod y negeseuon y maent yn ceisio’u cyflwyno, yn enwedig i’n pobl ifanc. Hoffwn ategu rhywbeth a ddywedais eisoes: mae’n briodol llongyfarch heddluoedd Cymru am y gefnogaeth a roesant i’r heddlu yn Lloegr. Bu iddynt ddangos proffesiynoldeb, fel y byddem yn erfyn gweld gan yr heddlu yma yng Nghymru.

The First Minister: Those groups are peddling a message of hate, and we must reject the messages that they are trying to convey, particularly to our young people. I would like to add one thing to what I said earlier: it is appropriate to congratulate Welsh police forces for the support that they gave to English forces. They demonstrated professionalism, which is what we would expect of the police in Wales.

Mick Antoniw: While Westminster is cutting police funding and numbers, this Government has given a commitment to appoint an extra 500 police community support officers in Wales. Could you update us on the current state of that programme and address our concerns that they will be going to the areas where they are most needed?

Mick Antoniw: Tra bod San Steffan yn torri cyllid a niferoedd yr heddlu, mae’r Lywodraeth hon wedi ymrwymo i benodi 500 o swyddogion cymorth cymunedol yr heddlu ychwanegol yng Nghymru. A allwch roi’r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf inni am gyflwr presennol y rhaglen honno a mynd i’r afael â’n pryderon y byddant yn mynd i’r ardaloedd lle mae eu hangen fwyaf? 

2.15 p.m.

The First Minister: The police forces have submitted a proposal for implementation and it is currently being considered by the Minister for Local Government and Communities.

Y Prif Weinidog: Mae’r heddluoedd wedi cyflwyno cynnig ar gyfer gweithredu ac mae’n cael ei ystyried gan y Gweinidog Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau.

Jenny Rathbone: I want to just reiterate what my colleagues from Cardiff South and Cardiff North have said about the role played by the chief executive of Cardiff Council in keeping us all informed on the preventative measures that were taken. I just want to ask the Government   how we are going to ensure that local councils are really clear on the need to maintain youth services that work collaboratively with police community support officers, so that we do not have disaffected youth who are simply out of control.

Jenny Rathbone: Rwyf eisiau ailadrodd yr hyn mae fy nghydweithwyr o Dde Caerdydd a Gogledd Caerdydd wedi’i ddweud am y rôl a chwaraewyd gan brif weithredwr Cyngor Caerdydd i’n cadw ni i gyd yn hysbys am y mesurau ataliol a gymerwyd. Rwyf eisiau gofyn i’r Llywodraeth sut y byddwn yn sicrhau bod cynghorau lleol yn wirioneddol glir ynghylch yr angen i gynnal gwasanaethau ieuenctid sy’n gweithio ar y cyd â swyddogion cymorth cymunedol yr heddlu, fel nad oes gennym bobl ifanc dadrithiedig sy’n wirioneddol afreolus. 

The First Minister: We know from experience in years gone by that where youth services are non-existent it can be more of a temptation for young people to perform acts of criminality. Everybody in this Chamber has been young at some point—some Members still are, I hope—and we know that young people often need to have services provided for them so that they have things to do. That is why there was such a commitment to youth services by the previous UK Government, and indeed by this Government. We have provided money for the all-Wales youth offending strategy—some £4.5 million during the course of the next financial year—and it demonstrates our commitment to making Welsh communities safer. 

Y Prif Weinidog: Gwyddom o brofiad yn y blynyddoedd a fu bod mwy o demtasiwn, weithiau, i bobl ifanc droseddu lle nad oes unrhyw fath o wasanaethau ieuenctid. Bu pawb yn y Siambr hon yn ifanc rhywbryd—mae rhai Aelodau’n dal yn ifanc, gobeithio—a gwyddom fod angen darparu gwasanaethau ar gyfer pobl ifanc, yn aml, fel bod ganddynt bethau i’w gwneud. Dyna pam roedd cymaint o ymrwymiad i wasanaethau ieuenctid gan Lywodraeth flaenorol y DU, ac yn wir gan y Llywodraeth hon. Rydym wedi darparu arian ar gyfer y strategaeth troseddwyr ifanc Cymru gyfan—rhyw £4.5 miliwn yn y flwyddyn ariannol nesaf—ac mae’n dangos ein hymrwymiad i wneud cymunedau Cymru yn fwy diogel. 

Cwestiynau Heb Rybudd gan Arweinwyr y Pleidiau

Questions Without Notice from the Party Leaders

The Leader of the Welsh Conservatives (Andrew R.T. Davies): First Minster, one of the important things when delivering public services is to have transparency. On my return from the Royal Welsh Show, there was a letter on my desk from the information commissioner, supporting an appeal that I had made regarding your Government withholding the papers in relation to McKinsey’s work on the national health service. Despite the legal obligation placed on your Government, you prevaricated when it came to releasing these papers. Why was that?

Arweinydd Ceidwadwyr Cymru (Andrew R.T Davies): Brif Weinidog, un o’r pethau pwysig wrth gyflwyno gwasanaethau cyhoeddus yw cael tryloywder. Ar ôl dychwelyd o Sioe Frenhinol Cymru, roedd llythyr ar fy nesg gan y comisiynydd gwybodaeth, yn cefnogi apêl a wneuthum ynglŷn â’r ffaith bod eich Llywodraeth yn celu’r papurau mewn perthynas â gwaith McKinsey ar y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol. Er gwaethaf y rwymedigaeth gyfreithiol a roddwyd ar eich Llywodraeth, buoch yn anwadal o ran cyhoeddi’r papurau hyn. Pam hynny?

The First Minister: I welcome the leader of the opposition to his role formally; this is the first question that he has asked in that capacity. There will be some occasions when the information commissioner rules against a government. We accept, of course, the information commissioner’s view and that information has now been provided.

Y Prif Weinidog: Yr wyf yn croesawu arweinydd yr wrthblaid i’w rôl yn ffurfiol; dyma’r cwestiwn cyntaf a ofynnodd yn rhinwedd y swydd honno. Bydd rhai achlysuron pan fydd y comisiynydd gwybodaeth yn rheoli yn erbyn llywodraeth. Rydym yn derbyn, wrth gwrs, farn y comisiynydd gwybodaeth ac mae’r gwybodaeth yn awr wedi cael ei darparu.

Andrew R.T. Davies: I am grateful to you for providing that information, First Minister. I find it ironic that, in your answer to the previous question, you spoke about cuts in police numbers emanating from Westminster and other actions that have been undertaken there. May I enlighten you as to some of the productivity opportunities that were put forward as a result of McKinsey’s work, in consultation with NHS officials? These included cutting 1,200 nurse positions or 5 per cent of the total, cutting the number of hospital beds and wards, closing NHS facilities, freezing promotions within the NHS, reducing the number of training places and leaving NHS vacancies unfilled. Can you give a commitment today that your Government will not undertake any of these actions that were highlighted in the work that was undertaken on behalf of your Government?

Andrew R.T. Davies: Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar ichi am ddarparu’r wybodaeth honno, Brif Weinidog. Mae’n eironig eich bod yn eich ateb i’r cwestiwn blaenorol wedi sôn am doriadau i nifer yr heddlu sy’n deillio o San Steffan, a chamau gweithredu eraill sydd wedi cael eu cymryd yno. A gaf i’ch goleuo chi ynghylch rhai o’r cyfleoedd cynhyrchiant a gyflwynwyd o ganlyniad i waith McKinsey, mewn ymgynghoriad â swyddogion y GIG? Roedd y rhain yn cynnwys torri 1,200 o swyddi nyrsio, neu 5 y cant o’r cyfanswm, torri nifer y gwelyau a wardiau ysbytai, cau cyfleusterau GIG, rhewi dyrchafiadau o fewn y GIG, lleihau nifer y lleoedd hyfforddi a gadael swyddi gwag y GIG heb eu llenwi. A allwch chi roi ymrwymiad heddiw na fydd eich Llywodraeth yn ymgymryd ag unrhyw un o’r camau gweithredu hyn a amlygwyd yn y gwaith a wnaed ar ran eich Llywodraeth?            

The First Minister: Have any of those actions been carried out? The answer to that is quite simply ‘no’. The work was not carried out on behalf of the Government in any event. However, if we look at the record of his party across the border, we see the lack of midwives, the privatisation of the NHS, the long-term waiting lists that are far longer in England than they are in Wales, and the fact that his party wishes to impose a tax on people for taking medicines and tablets. One thing that I can say to the leader of the opposition is this: we have nothing to learn from his colleagues in London and we know that whatever they do, he will do.

Y Prif Weinidog: A yw unrhyw un o’r camau hynny wedi’u gweithredu? Mae’r ateb yn eithaf syml: ‘na’. Ni chafodd y gwaith ei wneud ar ran y Llywodraeth beth bynnag. Fodd bynnag, os edrychwn ar record ei blaid ar draws y ffin, yr ydym yn gweld y diffyg bydwragedd, preifateiddio’r GIG, y rhestrau aros hirdymor, sy’n llawer mwy yn Lloegr nag yng Nghymru, a’r ffaith bod ei blaid yn dymuno gosod treth ar bobl ar gyfer cymryd meddyginiaethau a thabledi. Un peth y gallaf ei ddweud wrth arweinydd yr wrthblaid yw hyn: nid oes gennym ddim i’w ddysgu oddi wrth ei gydweithwyr yn Llundain ac rydym yn gwybod y bydd ef yn gwneud beth bynnag mae nhw yn ei wneud.

Andrew R.T. Davies: It is always enlightening to hear the First Minister spend so much time talking about Westminster. I have been told that on his visits to Westminster he has been likened to Andrew Lansley, so maybe in his spare time, when he plays a body double up in Westminster, he could spend more time talking about the English NHS. What we are debating here, First Minister, are those aspects that are your responsibility and the actions of your Government. I say to you that I know, from the discussions that I have had with health organisations, that there is a freeze on NHS positions, there is a reduction in jobs in the Welsh NHS and they are replicating the work that was undertaken on the instruction of your former Minister for health.

Andrew R.T. Davies: Mae wastad yn ddadlennol clywed y Prif Weinidog yn treulio cymaint o amser yn siarad am San Steffan. Rwyf wedi cael gwybod ei fod, ar ei ymweliadau â San Steffan, wedi cael ei gymharu ag Andrew Lansley, felly efallai yn ei amser sbâr, pan fydd yn ail Andrew Lansley lan yn San Steffan, y gallai dreulio mwy o amser yn siarad am y GIG yn Lloegr. Yr hyn yr ydym yn ei drafod yma, Brif Weinidog, yw’r agweddau sydd yn eich cyfrifoldeb chi, a gweithredoedd eich Llywodraeth chi. Rwy’n dweud wrthych fy mod yn gwybod, o’r trafodaethau yr wyf wedi’u cael gyda sefydliadau iechyd, bod yna rewi ar swyddi GIG, fod gostyngiad mewn swyddi yn y GIG yng Nghymru, ac maent yn dyblygu’r gwaith a wnaed o dan gyfarwyddyd eich cyn-Weinidog dros iechyd.

One thing that is required in public service is trust, First Minister. The other point that came out in the document was that LHB directors worried about stating the extent of the financial challenges that they faced or the extent of the cuts necessary as they were concerned about receiving an unfavourable response from the centre. Given that it is Labour’s policy to cut health spending in Wales and it is the reverse of what we, as Welsh Conservatives, would do to the health service, can you commit today to working in consultation with health boards rather than bullying them into carrying out your actions? Trust is a critical component in delivering public services in Wales.

Un peth sydd ei angen mewn gwasanaethau cyhoeddus yw ymddiriedaeth, Brif Weinidog. Y pwynt arall a ddaeth allan yn y ddogfen oedd bod cyfarwyddwyr byrddau iechyd lleol yn poeni am ddweud beth yw maint yr heriau ariannol oedd yn eu hwynebu, neu faint y toriadau angenrheidiol, gan eu bod yn pryderu am gael ymateb anffafriol o’r canol. O ystyried ei bod yn bolisi Llafur i dorri gwariant ar iechyd yng Nghymru—y gwrthwyneb o’r hyn y byddem ni, fel Ceidwadwyr Cymreig, yn ei wneud i’r gwasanaeth iechyd—a allwch ymrwymo heddiw i weithio mewn ymgynghoriad â byrddau iechyd yn hytrach na’u bwlio i weithredu eich camau? Mae ymddiriedaeth yn elfen hollbwysig wrth ddarparu gwasanaethau cyhoeddus yng Nghymru.

The First Minister: What he has failed to do is to stand up to the UK Government and demand more funding for Wales. We have seen the cuts that have been made to the Welsh budget, but what has his party done? It has tried to defend them. We have seen what is happening in England, which is relevant—I notice that he fails to defend his colleagues at Westminster—because the people of Wales know that if his party gets its hands on the levers of power, it will simply do in Wales what it has done in England. Then we shall see the neediest people suffering the most.

Y Prif Weinidog: Yr hyn y mae wedi methu ei wneud yw gwrthwynebu Llywodraeth y DU a mynnu mwy o arian i Gymru. Rydym wedi gweld y toriadau sydd wedi’u gwneud i gyllideb Cymru, ond beth mae ei blaid wedi ei wneud? Mae wedi ceisio eu hamddiffyn.  Yr ydym wedi gweld yr hyn sy’n digwydd yn Lloegr, sydd yn berthnasol—rwy’n sylwi ei fod yn methu amddiffyn ei gydweithwyr yn San Steffan—gan fod pobl Cymru yn gwybod, pe bai ei blaid yn cael ei dwylo ar yr awenau, bydd yn gwneud yng Nghymru’r hyn  a wnaeth yn Lloegr. Yna cawn weld mai’r bobl fwyaf anghenus sy’n dioddef fwyaf.

Andrew R.T. Davies: First Minister, if we were in Government, we would be protecting the Welsh health service, not inflicting the £1 billion-worth of cuts that your Government is inflicting on it. It has been said that you tried to sit on the papers and that it was only when the information commissioner insisted that you should release them that you did so. Can your Government be proud of the fact that trust and transparency do not run through its work in relation to the health service in Wales?

Andrew R.T. Davies: Brif Weinidog, pe baem mewn Llywodraeth, byddem yn diogelu’r gwasanaeth iechyd yng Nghymru, ac nid yn creu £1 biliwn o doriadau y mae’ch Llywodraeth chi’n yn osod arno. Mae wedi cael ei ddweud eich bod wedi ceisio cuddio’r papurau, a’ch bod wedi eu cyhoeddi dim ond pan fynnodd y comisiynydd gwybodaeth ar hynny. A all eich Llywodraeth ymfalchïo yn y ffaith nad yw ymddiriedaeth a thryloywder yn elfen gyson yn eich gwaith mewn perthynas â’r gwasanaeth iechyd yng Nghymru?

The First Minister: What lessons can we learn regarding transparency from the party opposite? It wants to see cuts of 20 per cent in the education budget, but it also depends on who you listen to: Nick Bourne said 24 per cent, others have said 20 per cent, and others have said 12 per cent. This Government is a beacon of transparency, as opposed to the fag-packet calculations that we get from the Tories. They say that they would increase health spending by £1 billion, but they never tell the people of Wales where that money would come from, other than from the devastation of education services and social services, which would ensure that the neediest people would lose access to the services that they need most. That is the level of transparency that we have from the Tories. Be honest with the people of Wales: they might even vote for you.

Y Prif Weinidog: Pa wersi ynghylch tryloywder y gallwn eu dysgu gan y blaid gyferbyn? Mae am weld toriadau o 20 y cant yn y gyllideb addysg, ond mae hefyd yn dibynnu ar bwy ydych yn gwrando arnynt: dywedodd Nick Bourne 24 y cant, mae eraill wedi dweud 20 y cant, ac mae eraill wedi dweud 12 y cant. Mae’r Llywodraeth hon yn esiampl o dryloywder, yn hytrach na’r cyfrifiadau byrfyfyr yr ydym yn eu cael gan y Torïaid. Maent yn dweud y byddent yn cynyddu gwariant ar iechyd gan £1 biliwn, ond ni fyddant byth yn dweud wrth bobl Cymru o ble byddai’r arian hwnnw yn dod, ac eithrio drwy ddifrodi’r gwasanaethau addysg a’r gwasanaethau cymdeithasol, a fyddai’n sicrhau bod y bobl fwyaf anghenus yn colli mynediad at y gwasanaethau y maent eu hangen fwyaf. Dyna lefel y tryloywder sydd gennym gan y Torïaid. Byddwch yn onest gyda phobl Cymru: efallai y gwnânt hyd yn oed yn bleidleisio drosoch chi.

The Leader of the Welsh Liberal Democrats (Kirsty Williams): First Minister, will you outline to this Chamber what contact your Government had with Jaguar Land Rover about the possibility of securing 750 jobs, which, as was announced yesterday, will now go to Wolverhampton?

Arweinydd Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru (Kirsty Williams): Brif Weinidog, a wnewch chi amlinellu i’r Siambr hon pa gysylltiad mae’ch Llywodraeth wedi ei gael gyda Jaguar Land Rover am y posibilrwydd o sicrhau 750 o swyddi, sydd, fel y cyhoeddwyd ddoe, yn awr yn mynd i Wolverhampton?

The First Minister: A great deal of work was put in to try to attract Jaguar Land Rover to Wales. However, we were informed in April that it would not be coming to Wales and that its preferred UK site was at Wolverhampton. The main reason for that was simply the proximity of the site to its assembly plants. Therefore, it has been known for some time that that is where it would go. However, the feedback that has been received from Jaguar Land Rover with regard to the presentation that was made to it has been very favourable. On this occasion, the geography of Wolverhampton meant that it won out over south Wales.

Y Prif Weinidog: Mae llawer iawn o waith wedi’i wneud i geisio denu Jaguar Land Rover i Gymru. Fodd bynnag, fe’n hysbyswyd ym mis Ebrill na fyddai’n dod i Gymru ac mai Wolverhampton oedd ei safle detholedig yn y DU. Y prif reswm am hynny oedd agosrwydd y safle at ei gydosodfeydd. Felly, mae wedi bod yn hysbys ers sbel mai dyna lle byddai’n mynd. Fodd bynnag, mae’r adborth sydd wedi dod i law gan Jaguar Land Rover o ran y cyflwyniad a wnaed iddo wedi bod yn ffafriol iawn. Ar yr achlysur hwn, mae daearyddiaeth Wolverhampton yn golygu ei bod wedi ennill yn erbyn de Cymru.

Kirsty Williams: One factor that has been mentioned by Jaguar Land Rover to explain its decision to go to Wolverhampton was the presence of an enterprise zone in the west midlands. First Minister, do you now regret that your Government, when it was trying to attract that investment into Wales, was not able to tell Jaguar Land Rover of its intention to create an automotive industry enterprise zone in Ebbw Vale? Do you regret not being in a position at that time to make that offer?

Kirsty Williams: Un ffactor sydd wedi cael ei grybwyll gan Jaguar Land Rover i esbonio ei benderfyniad i fynd i’r Wolverhampton oedd presenoldeb parth menter yng ngorllewin canolbarth Lloegr. Brif Weinidog, a ydych yn awr yn gresynu nad oedd eich Llywodraeth, pan oedd yn ceisio denu’r buddsoddiad hwnnw i Gymru, yn gallu dweud wrth Jaguar Land Rover ei bwriad i greu parth menter diwydiant modurol yng Nglyn Ebwy? A ydych yn gresynu nad oeddech mewn sefyllfa i wneud y cynnig bryd hynny?

The First Minister: It was not clear that there was a site at Ebbw Vale for a development of this size. We do not know what has been offered to Jaguar Land Rover by the authorities in England in terms of capital allowances, for example. No-one has suggested that the fact that it is going to an enterprise zone is a factor. It has not suggested that, and neither has anyone else. The main factors are proximity and the travel costs of coming from south Wales to the assembly plants, given the current price of fuel. Nevertheless, it has made it clear that it wants to maintain a strong working relationship with us, and it does see opportunities for working with suppliers from south Wales to a greater extent in future, which will be to our benefit.

Y Prif Weinidog: Nid oedd yn amlwg bod safle yng Nglyn Ebwy ar gyfer datblygiad o’r maint hwn. Nid ydym yn gwybod beth sydd wedi cael ei gynnig i Jaguar Land Rover gan yr awdurdodau yn Lloegr o ran lwfansau cyfalaf, er ​​enghraifft. Nid oes neb wedi awgrymu bod y ffaith y bydd yn mynd i barth menter yn ffactor. Nid yw Jaguar Land Rover wedi awgrymu hynny nac unrhyw un arall. Y prif ffactorau yw agosrwydd a chostau teithio rhwng de Cymru a’r cydosodfeydd, o ystyried pris cyfredol tanwydd. Serch hynny, mae wedi gwneud yn glir ei fod am gynnal perthynas weithio gref gyda ni, ac mae’n gweld cyfleoedd i weithio gyda chyflenwyr o dde Cymru i raddau helaethach yn y dyfodol, a byddwn yn elwa.

Kirsty Williams: Jaguar Land Rover is on record as saying that the presence of the enterprise zone in the west midlands was indeed a crucial factor in its decision to invest there, and I regret that the Welsh Government was not in a position to offer similar support to the company on that occasion. However, First Minister, now that we have heard your belated announcement that you will create enterprise zones, perhaps today you can tell Members, Welsh businesses and potential investors what support they will now be able to enjoy from the Welsh Government. Will these enterprise zones deliver reduced business rates, relaxed planning controls and superfast broadband? When will you be in a position to put some meat on the bones of the very skinny announcement that was made yesterday?

Kirsty Williams: Mae Jaguar Land Rover wedi dweud ar goedd bod presenoldeb y parth menter yng ngorllewin canolbarth Lloegr yn wir yn ffactor allweddol yn ei benderfyniad i fuddsoddi yno, ac yr wyf yn gresynu nad oedd Llywodraeth Cymru mewn sefyllfa i gynnig cymorth tebyg i’r cwmni yr adeg honno. Fodd bynnag, Brif Weinidog, gan ein bod yn awr wedi clywed eich cyhoeddiad hwyr yn y dydd y byddwch yn creu parthau menter, efallai y gallwch ddweud wrth Aelodau, busnesau Cymru a buddsoddwyr posibl heddiw pa gymorth y byddant yn awr yn gallu ei fwynhau gan Lywodraeth Cymru. A fydd y parthau menter hyn yn darparu llai o ardrethi busnes, rheolaethau cynllunio llai llym a band eang cyflym iawn? Pryd y byddwch mewn sefyllfa i roi rhywfaint o gig ar esgyrn y cyhoeddiad tenau iawn a wnaed ddoe?

The First Minister: I am not sure that it was known that there would be an enterprise zone in April, which is when we were told by Jaguar Land Rover that its preferred site was Wolverhampton. It was made quite clear to us that geography was the deciding factor in the application. This happened at the beginning of the year. Of course, we are looking at what we can offer in terms of planning, business rates and superfast broadband, and we will look to provide those services that will be provided in the enterprise zones in England. However, we need clarification from the Chief Secretary to the Treasury as to what is happening with capital allowances. We could then offer a more comprehensive package. I know that my colleague Edwina Hart has written in that vein and has written once again asking for clarification. If we get it, then we will be clearer on what the comprehensive package can be.

Y Prif Weinidog: Nid wyf yn siŵr ei bod yn hysbys y byddai parth menter ym mis Ebrill, a dyna pryd y dywedodd Jaguar Land Rover wrthym mai Wolverhampton oedd ei safle detholedig. Fe’i gwnaed yn gwbl glir i ni mai daearyddiaeth oedd y ffactor mwyaf dylanwadol yn y cais. Digwyddodd hyn ar ddechrau’r flwyddyn. Wrth gwrs, yr ydym yn edrych ar yr hyn y gallwn ei gynnig o ran cynllunio, ardrethi busnes a band eang cyflym iawn, a byddwn yn edrych i ddarparu’r gwasanaethau hynny a fydd yn cael eu darparu yn y parthau menter yn Lloegr. Fodd bynnag, mae angen eglurhad gan Brif Ysgrifennydd y Trysorlys ynghylch yr hyn sy’n digwydd gyda lwfansau cyfalaf. Gallem wedyn gynnig pecyn mwy cynhwysfawr. Gwn fod fy nghyd-Aelod, Edwina Hart, wedi ysgrifennu yn yr un modd ac wedi ysgrifennu unwaith eto yn gofyn am eglurhad. Pe cawn ni hynny, byddwn yn gliriach ynghylch yr hyn y gall y pecyn cynhwysfawr fod.

Kirsty Williams: In March, when we were all campaigning on the referendum, you promised the voters of Wales that if you got those extra powers, there would be no more excuses from your Government, yet today, on the first day back, we have had an excuse as to why you are not in a position to tell Members or businesses in Wales what support you can offer in your enterprise zones. Will you explain why you have chosen these specific areas and what will constitute success for your enterprise zone scheme? What can the areas that have been left out of the enterprise zones, such as life sciences and the creative industries, which form a crucial part of your economic renewal strategy, expect from your Government by way of ongoing support?

Kirsty Williams: Ym mis Mawrth, pan oeddem i gyd yn ymgyrchu ar gyfer y refferendwm, addawsoch i bleidleiswyr Cymru na fyddai mwy o esgusodion gan eich Llywodraeth pe baech yn cael y pwerau ychwanegol hynny. Eto heddiw, ar y diwrnod cyntaf yn ôl, rydym wedi cael esgus i esbonio pam nad ydych mewn sefyllfa i ddweud wrth Aelodau neu fusnesau yng Nghymru pa gymorth y gallwch ei gynnig yn eich parthau menter. A wnewch chi egluro pam rydych wedi dewis y meysydd penodol hyn a beth fydd yn golygu llwyddiant ar gyfer eich cynllun ardal fenter? Beth all yr ardaloedd sydd wedi cael eu gadael allan o’r parthau menter, megis gwyddorau bywyd a’r diwydiannau creadigol, sy’n rhan hanfodol o’ch strategaeth adnewyddu’r economi, ei ddisgwyl gan eich Llywodraeth o ran cymorth parhaus?

The First Minister: Other areas are still being looked at in terms of developing enterprise zones; these are the areas that were ready to be announced, and they have been welcomed by business. I am sure that the Liberal Democrats feel disappointed by this, but the Institute of Directors and the business community have welcomed these announcements, and we think that this is the right approach. If you simply have enterprise zones that are not themed and do not have clustering around them, they will simply pinch business from elsewhere. We have seen that happen in other parts of Wales and in other parts of Britain. We want to ensure that the enterprise zones attract new investment, that they attract new jobs, and that they create the kind of economic activity that we believe can be created in these parts of Wales with such industries. It is a much more targeted approach than that which has been taken by the UK Government in England, which I consider to be broad brush and questionable.

Y Prif Weinidog: Rydym yn dal i edrych ar feysydd eraill o ran datblygu parthau menter; dyma’r meysydd a oedd yn barod i gael eu cyhoeddi, ac maent wedi cael eu croesawu gan fusnesau. Yr wyf yn sicr y bydd y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn teimlo’n siomedig am hyn, ond mae Sefydliad y Cyfarwyddwyr a’r gymuned fusnes wedi croesawu’r cyhoeddiadau hyn, ac yr ydym yn meddwl mai dyma’r dull cywir. Os oes gennych barthau menter sydd heb thema ac heb glystyrau o’u cwmpas, byddant yn dwyn busnes o fannau eraill. Yr ydym wedi gweld hynny’n digwydd mewn rhannau eraill o Gymru ac mewn rhannau eraill o Brydain. Rydym am sicrhau bod y parthau menter yn denu buddsoddiad newydd, yn denu swyddi newydd, ac yn creu’r math o weithgaredd economaidd y gellir ei greu yn y rhannau hyn o Gymru gyda diwydiannau o’r fath. Mae’n agwedd llawer mwy targededig nag agwedd Llywodraeth y DU yn Lloegr, sydd, yn fy marn i, yn rhy fras ac amheus.

The Leader of Plaid Cymru (Ieuan Wyn Jones): The Welsh general election campaign in May was fought against a very gloomy economic background. As I am sure the First Minister will accept, the situation has worsened considerably since then: we have seen a reduction in growth forecasts and a quite a substantial rise in unemployment levels. In these circumstances, it is right that the Welsh Government considers what extra support it should be giving to business. I understand that you have made an announcement on enterprise zones, but what specific other measures do you think the Welsh Government should now introduce to meet these even more challenging economic conditions?

Arweinydd Plaid Cymru (Ieuan Wyn Jones): Ymladdwyd ymgyrch etholiad cyffredinol Cymru ym mis Mai yn erbyn cefndir economaidd tywyll iawn. Fel yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd y Prif Weinidog yn derbyn, mae’r sefyllfa wedi gwaethygu yn sylweddol ers hynny: yr ydym wedi gweld gostyngiad mewn rhagolygon twf a chynnydd sylweddol mewn diweithdra. Yn yr amgylchiadau hyn, mae’n iawn bod Llywodraeth Cymru yn ystyried pa gymorth ychwanegol y gall ei roi i fusnes. Yr wyf yn deall eich bod wedi gwneud cyhoeddiad ar ardaloedd menter, ond pa fesurau penodol eraill, yn eich barn chi, y dylai Llywodraeth Cymru bellach eu cyflwyno i wynebu’r amodau economaidd hyn, sydd hyd yn oed yn fwy heriol?

The First Minister: One of the areas in which we will be moving forward in the very near future is the Welsh jobs fund. It is designed to ensure that, each year, 4,000 young people have access to training and apprenticeships. The way to bolster the Welsh economy in years to come is to ensure that our people have the skills they need for the future. The Welsh jobs fund replaces the jobs fund that was removed by the UK Government. It will ensure that our young people acquire the skills that they need and have the correct training so that Wales becomes an attractive place to invest. Without investing in skills, our economy will never be able to grow at the rate that we would wish.

Y Prif Weinidog: Un o’r meysydd lle y byddwn yn symud ymlaen yn y dyfodol agos iawn yw’r gronfa swyddi yng Nghymru. Mae wedi’i gynllunio i sicrhau, bob blwyddyn, y bydd 4,000 o bobl ifanc yn cael mynediad at hyfforddiant a phrentisiaethau. Y ffordd i hybu economi Cymru yn y blynyddoedd i ddod yw sicrhau bod gan ein pobl y sgiliau sydd eu hangen arnynt ar gyfer y dyfodol. Mae’r gronfa swyddi yng Nghymru yn disodli’r gronfa swyddi a gafodd ei dileu gan Lywodraeth y DU. Bydd yn sicrhau bod ein pobl ifanc yn ennill y sgiliau sydd eu hangen arnynt ac yn cael yr hyfforddiant cywir fel bod Cymru’n dod yn lle deniadol i fuddsoddi. Heb fuddsoddi mewn sgiliau, ni fydd ein heconomi byth yn gallu tyfu mor gyflym ag y byddem yn ddymuno.

Ieuan Wyn Jones: I am a bit surprised by that response, First Minister, because that is already in your plan; it was announced as a commitment in your manifesto. The situation has worsened since May, and it is now considerably worse. When Alistair Darling was Chancellor of the Exchequer, he said that, this year, there would be UK growth rates of between 3.25 per cent and 3.75 per cent. In the first two quarters, the economy has grown by less than 1 per cent, and the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development is forecasting growth of less than 1 per cent for the whole year, so this is a massive difference from what you, Plaid Cymru, the Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats were planning for in our manifestos in May. At best, therefore, we will have flatlined growth this year.

Ieuan Wyn Jones: Yr wyf yn synnu braidd at yr ymateb hwnnw, Brif Weinidog, gan fod hynny eisoes yn eich cynllun; fe’i cyhoeddwyd fel ymrwymiad yn eich maniffesto. Mae’r sefyllfa wedi gwaethygu ers mis Mai, ac mae bellach yn waeth o lawer. Pan oedd Alistair Darling yn Ganghellor y Trysorlys, dywedodd y byddai cyfraddau twf yn y DU eleni rhwng 3.25 y cant a 3.75 y cant. Yn y ddau chwarter cyntaf, mae’r economi wedi tyfu llai na 1 y cant, ac mae’r Sefydliad ar gyfer Economaidd Cydweithrediad a Datblygiad yn rhagweld twf o lai nag 1 y cant ar gyfer y flwyddyn gyfan, felly mae hwn yn wahaniaeth enfawr rhwng yr hyn yr oeddech chi, Plaid Cymru, y Ceidwadwyr a’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn gynllunio ar ei gyfer yn ein maniffesto ym mis Mai. Ar y gorau, felly, bydd gennym dwf wedi’i lefelu eleni.

2.30 p.m.

We have also seen unemployment grow; it is now at the same level as it was in the teeth of recession—it stands at 8.4 per cent. We are told that it will get even worse. In addition to what you already have in the pipeline, in terms of your support for business, what extra support is your Government going to provide in the next few months? Otherwise, the Welsh economy will to be in an even worse position.

Rydym hefyd wedi gweld diweithdra yn tyfu; mae yn awr ar yr un lefel ag yr oedd yn nannedd y dirwasgiad—mae’n sefyll ar 8.4 y cant. Dywedir wrthym y bydd yn mynd hyd yn oed yn waeth. Yn ychwanegol at yr hyn sydd gennych eisoes ar y gweill, o ran eich cefnogaeth i fusnesau, pa gefnogaeth ychwanegol y mae eich Llywodraeth yn mynd i ddarparu yn yr ychydig fisoedd nesaf? Fel arall, bydd economi Cymru mewn sefyllfa hyd yn oed yn waeth.

The First Minister: That is the first time that we have been criticised for implementing a manifesto commitment. However, let me give you one example of what we are doing. We have made a bid to host the Green Investment Bank; that bid was made at the beginning of this month. My colleague, Edwina Hart, sought a meeting with Vince Cable at the end of July to discuss the Green Investment Bank, but that meeting was, unfortunately, refused. Nevertheless, a bid has been made and we know that, when it comes to the Green Investment Bank, there is the potential to inject up to £15 billion into the economy over the next four years. That is the kind of project that we are bidding for, and that is the kind of project that will provide jobs in Wales.

Y Prif Weinidog: Dyna’r tro cyntaf i ni gael ein beirniadu am weithredu ymrwymiad maniffesto. Fodd bynnag, gadewch imi roi un enghraifft i chi o’r hyn yr ydym yn ei wneud. Rydym wedi gwneud cais i gynnal Banc Buddsoddi Gwyrdd; gwnaethpwyd y cais hwnnw ddechrau’r mis hwn. Ceisiodd fy nghydweithiwr, Edwina Hart, gyfarfod gyda Vince Cable ddiwedd mis Gorffennaf i drafod y Banc Buddsoddi Gwyrdd, ond, yn anffodus, gwrthodwyd y cyfarfod hwnnw. Serch hynny, mae cais wedi cael ei wneud ac rydym yn gwybod, o ran y Banc Buddsoddi Gwyrdd, bod potensial i chwistrellu hyd at £15 biliwn i’r economi dros y pedair blynedd nesaf. Dyna’r math o brosiect yr ydym yn gwneud cais amdano, a dyna’r math o brosiect a fydd yn darparu swyddi yng Nghymru.

Ieuan Wyn Jones: While I welcome the Green Investment Bank and the ideas for youth employment—although that is a major challenge—I am asking you to tell us whether you will change course and do something different. I have looked again at the budget of the Minister for Business, Enterprise, Technology and Science. When the supplementary budget was announced, it became clear that her budget is being reduced by 6 per cent in cash terms over the next few years, whereas the overall reduction in cash terms for the rest of the budget is 1 per cent. That may have been right in the circumstances of the time, but we are now in different circumstances; the economy is in desperate trouble in Wales. We know that growth will go down and that unemployment will go up. Given those circumstances, is it not right that you think again about the budget of the Minister for business?

Ieuan Wyn Jones: Er fy mod yn croesawu’r Banc Buddsoddi Gwyrdd a’r syniadau ar gyfer cyflogaeth ieuenctid—er bod hynny’n sialens enfawr—yr wyf yn gofyn i chi ddweud wrthym a fyddwch yn newid cwrs ac yn gwneud rhywbeth gwahanol. Rwyf wedi edrych eto ar gyllideb y Gweinidog Busnes, Menter, Technoleg a Gwyddoniaeth. Pan gyhoeddwyd y gyllideb atodol, daeth yn amlwg bod ei chyllideb yn cael ei leihau o 6 y cant mewn termau arian parod dros yr ychydig flynyddoedd nesaf, tra bod y gostyngiad cyffredinol mewn termau arian parod ar gyfer gweddill y gyllideb yn 1 y cant. Efallai bod hynny wedi bod yn iawn o dan yr amgylchiadau ar y pryd, ond yr ydym yn awr mewn gwahanol amgylchiadau; mae’r economi mewn trafferth enbyd yng Nghymru. Rydym yn gwybod y bydd twf yn mynd i lawr ac y bydd diweithdra’n mynd i fyny. O ystyried yr amgylchiadau hynny, onid yw’n iawn eich bod yn meddwl eto am gyllideb y Gweinidog busnes?

The First Minister: We are opting for the budget that you agreed for this financial year. However, I take the point; we always have to be flexible when it comes to looking at budgets. I do not accept for one moment that when the different political parties framed their manifestos for May, anyone thought that we were going to see an improvement in the economy very rapidly. Our manifesto was designed to deal with circumstances of slow economic growth, particularly given the economic policy of the UK Government. I have already mentioned two substantive policies that we will be implementing. As I said, the way to improve the Welsh economy is to look at investing in skills. The Welsh jobs fund is part of that, because we must present ourselves to the world as a country that has the skills that the world needs, rather than, as in the 1980s, a country with low wage rates.

Y Prif Weinidog: Yr ydym yn dewis y gyllideb y cytunoch arni ar gyfer y flwyddyn ariannol hon. Fodd bynnag, derbyniaf y pwynt; mae angen i ni bob amser fod yn hyblyg pan ddaw i edrych ar gyllidebau.  Nid wyf yn derbyn am eiliad pan fframiodd y gwahanol bleidiau gwleidyddol eu maniffestos ar gyfer mis Mai, bod unrhyw un wedi meddwl ein bod yn mynd i weld gwelliant yn yr economi yn gyflym iawn. Cynlluniwyd ein maniffesto i ymdrin ag amgylchiadau o dwf economaidd araf, yn enwedig o ystyried polisi economaidd Llywodraeth y DU. Rwyf eisoes wedi sôn am ddau bolisi sylweddol y byddwn yn eu rhoi ar waith. Fel y dywedais, y ffordd i wella economi Cymru yw edrych ar fuddsoddi mewn sgiliau. Mae’r gronfa swyddi yng Nghymru yn rhan o hynny, oherwydd rhaid inni gyflwyno ein hunain i’r byd fel gwlad sydd â’r sgiliau y mae’r byd ei angen, yn hytrach nag, fel yn y 1980au, gwlad sydd â chyfraddau cyflog isel.

Ieuan Wyn Jones: I am sorry, First Minister, but I regard that, yet again, as a very complacent answer. You are just telling us what you were planning to do anyway. The situation is worse than it was in May; it is no good trying to say that the budget that was fixed in a different economic time is fit for purpose today. Are you prepared to look again at that budget? Let me tell you what the One Wales Government did when faced with a similar situation—you were part of that. We set up the ProAct scheme and put more money into the ReAct scheme. What you have done—because you thought that the economy was improving—is scrap ProAct and reduce the budget for ReAct. Now that circumstances are different, will you look again at reintroducing ProAct and put more money into ReAct? Are you, for example, given the awful situation that we are in, going to be looking for an extraordinary economic summit to get people around the table to discuss the future of the Welsh economy? What we want to hear from you, First Minister, is not what you have already planned, but what you will do given the enormous challenges that the economy will now face. What will you do to support your own Minister for business in delivering that?

Ieuan Wyn Jones: Mae’n ddrwg gennyf, Brif Weinidog, ond yr wyf yn ystyried hynny, unwaith eto, fel ateb hunanfodlon iawn. Rydych ond yn dweud wrthym beth yr oeddech yn bwriadu ei wneud beth bynnag. Mae’r sefyllfa yn waeth nag yr oedd ym mis Mai; nid oes diben ceisio dweud bod y gyllideb a sefydlwyd mewn amser economaidd gwahanol yn addas at y diben heddiw. A ydych yn barod i edrych eto ar y gyllideb honno? Gadewch imi ddweud wrthych yr hyn a wnaeth Llywodraeth Cymru’n Un wrth wynebu sefyllfa debyg—roeddech yn rhan o hynny. Sefydlom y cynllun ProAct a rhoi mwy o arian i mewn i’r cynllun ReAct. Yr hyn yr ydych chi wedi ei wneud—oherwydd eich bod yn meddwl bod yr economi yn gwella—yw cael gwared ar ProAct a lleihau’r gyllideb ar gyfer ReAct. Nawr bod yr amgylchiadau yn wahanol, a wnewch edrych eto ar ailgyflwyno ProAct a rhoi mwy o arian i mewn i ReAct? A fyddwch chi, er enghraifft, o ystyried y sefyllfa ofnadwy yr ydym ynddi, yn edrych am uwchgynhadledd economaidd arbennig i gael pobl o amgylch y bwrdd i drafod dyfodol economi Cymru? Yr hyn yr ydym am ei glywed gennych, Brif Weinidog, yw nid yr hyn yr ydych eisoes wedi’i gynllunio, ond beth fyddwch yn ei wneud o ystyried yr heriau enfawr y bydd yr economi bellach yn wynebu. Beth fyddwch chi’n ei wneud i gefnogi eich Gweinidog busnes eich hun i gyflawni hynny?

The First Minister: It seems to me that the leader of Plaid Cymru is criticising me for saying what I am planning to do, while at the same time saying that I should be saying what I am planning to do. We presented our manifesto in the elections in May and our manifesto was the one on which the Government was elected. In contained concrete proposals to help the Welsh economy. At the time the decision was taken on ProAct, you were in Government. There are also schemes such as Skills Growth Wales, which help to promote skills as we move forward. The reality of the situation is that we are looking to attract investment to Wales, we are bidding for the Green Investment Bank, and we are investing in the skills of our young people. These are all things that we promised to do at election time. They are what the people of Wales want to see. We had the most dynamic manifesto, and now we are going to be dynamic in implementing it.

Y Prif Weinidog: Mae’n ymddangos i mi bod arweinydd Plaid Cymru yn fy meirniadu am ddweud beth yr wyf yn bwriadu ei wneud, tra ar yr un pryd yn dweud y dylwn fod yn dweud beth yr wyf yn bwriadu ei wneud. Cyflwynwyd ein maniffesto yn yr etholiadau ym mis Mai a’n maniffesto ni oedd yr un yr etholwyd y Llywodraeth arno. Yr oedd yn cynnwys cynigion pendant er mwyn helpu economi Cymru. Ar yr adeg y gwnaed y penderfyniad ar ProAct, yr oeddech chi yn y Llywodraeth. Mae yna gynlluniau megis Sgiliau Twf Cymru, sy’n helpu i hyrwyddo sgiliau wrth inni symud ymlaen hefyd. Realiti’r sefyllfa yw ein bod yn ceisio denu buddsoddiad i Gymru, rydym yn gwneud cais ar gyfer y Banc Buddsoddi Gwyrdd, ac yr ydym yn buddsoddi yn sgiliau ein pobl ifanc. Mae’r rhain i gyd yn bethau yr addawsom eu gwneud adeg yr etholiad. Dyna mae pobl Cymru am ei weld. Ni oedd â’r maniffesto mwyaf deinamig, ac rydym yn awr yn mynd i fod yn ddeinamig wrth ei weithredu.

Lindsay Whittle: I welcome the launch of the Welsh Government’s ‘Live Fear Free’ campaign, and we eagerly await more details on the draft Bill. You will be aware that two women a week are being killed by a current or ex-partner in England and Wales and that 54 per cent of rape is being committed by a current or former partner. First Minister, I am sure that you agree that it is vital that the upcoming domestic abuse (Wales) Bill covers prevention as well as service provision. Do you agree that the prevention of domestic abuse relies heavily on tackling the attitudes that lead to the acceptance and normalisation of violence against women and that the Bill should extend to working with specialist third sector agencies, such as Welsh Women’s Aid, and in schools to challenge these attitudes?

Lindsay Whittle: Rwy’n croesawu lansiad ymgyrch ‘Byw Heb Ofn’ Llywodraeth Cymru, ac yr ydym yn aros yn eiddgar am fwy o fanylion am y Bil drafft. Byddwch yn ymwybodol bod dwy fenyw yr wythnos yn cael eu lladd gan bartner presennol neu flaenorol yn Lloegr a Chymru, a bod 54 y cant o drais rhywiol yn cael ei gyflawni gan bartner presennol neu flaenorol. Brif Weinidog, yr wyf yn siŵr y cytunwch ei bod yn hanfodol bod y Bil cam-drin domestig (Cymru) arfaethedig yn cwmpasu ataliaeth yn ogystal â darparu gwasanaethau. A ydych yn cytuno bod atal cam-drin domestig yn dibynnu’n helaeth ar fynd i’r afael â’r agweddau sy’n arwain at dderbyn a normaleiddio trais yn erbyn menywod ac y dylai’r Bil ymestyn i weithio gydag asiantaethau trydydd sector arbenigol, fel Cymorth i Fenywod Cymru, ac mewn ysgolion i herio’r agweddau hyn?

The First Minister: Yes, I agree.

Y Prif Weinidog: Ydw, yr wyf yn cytuno

Christine Chapman: First Minister, you will be aware that this Assembly is one of the most gender-balanced in the world. We are all very proud of that fact and would like to spread that good practice to other legislatures and policy-making bodies. I am very pleased that your Government has committed to ensuring that public bodies have more women members. Could you outline what steps are being taken to address that?

Christine Chapman: Brif Weinidog, byddwch yn ymwybodol bod y Cynulliad hwn yn un o’r rhai mwyaf cytbwys rhwng y rhywiau. Rydym i gyd yn falch iawn o’r ffaith honno a byddem yn hoffi lledaenu’r arfer da hwnnw i deddfwrfeydd eraill a chyrff sy’n llunio polisi. Rwy’n falch iawn bod eich Llywodraeth wedi ymrwymo i sicrhau bod cyrff cyhoeddus yn cael mwy o aelodau sy’n fenywod. A allech amlinellu pa gamau sy’n cael eu cymryd i fynd i’r afael â hynny?

The First Minister: You will know that, in the manifesto on which we were elected, we said that we would seek to introduce Norwegian-style gender quotas for appointments to public bodies. We are currently exploring options, including assessing the legal scope for action with officials.

Y Prif Weinidog: Byddwch yn gwybod, yn y maniffesto y cawsom ein hethol arno, ein bod wedi dweud y byddem yn ceisio cyflwyno cwotâu rhyw yn yr arddull Norwyaidd ar gyfer penodiadau i gyrff cyhoeddus. Ar hyn o bryd rydym yn archwilio opsiynau, gan gynnwys asesu’r cwmpas cyfreithiol ar gyfer gweithredu gyda swyddogion.

Mohammad Asghar: First Minister, it is very concerning that the number of disability hate crimes increased in all four police force areas during 2010-11. Welsh Government policy can play a key role in working to reduce levels of disability hate crime, from awareness-raising in educational settings to offering support and guidance to community-based agencies. The Equality and Human Rights Commission has suggested that, in Wales, specific equality duties could include objectives to tackle disability harassment. First Minister, how do you envisage future policy making will take this issue into consideration to ensure that this problem is a top equality priority in Wales during the fourth Assembly? Given concerns about a lack of awareness of the problem of disability hate crimes, what is your Government doing to ensure that the scale of the problem is adequately recognised?

Mohammad Asghar: Brif Weinidog, mae’n destun pryder mawr bod nifer y troseddau casineb anabledd wedi cynyddu yn y pedair ardal heddlu yn ystod 2010-11. Gall polisi Llywodraeth Cymru chwarae rhan allweddol wrth weithio i leihau lefelau o droseddau casineb anabledd, o godi ymwybyddiaeth mewn lleoliadau addysgol i gynnig cymorth ac arweiniad i asiantaethau yn y gymuned.  Mae’r Comisiwn Cydraddoldeb a Hawliau Dynol wedi awgrymu y gallai dyletswyddau cydraddoldeb penodol yng Nghymru gynnwys amcanion i fynd i’r afael ag aflonyddu ar sail anabledd. Brif Weinidog, sut ydych yn rhagweld y bydd llunio polisïau yn y dyfodol yn cymryd y mater hwn i ystyriaeth er mwyn sicrhau bod y broblem hon yn un o’r prif flaenoriaethau cydraddoldeb yng Nghymru yn ystod y pedwerydd Cynulliad? O ystyried pryderon am ddiffyg ymwybyddiaeth o’r broblem troseddau casineb anabledd, beth mae eich Llywodraeth yn ei wneud i sicrhau bod maint y broblem yn cael ei gydnabod yn ddigonol?

The First Minister: I know that this has been brought to the public’s attention by one of my constituents—someone I know very well and who has experienced disability hate crimes. It is difficult to conceive of someone expressing such views, but the reality is that there are people who have experienced having that sort of hatred directed at them. We will look to work with all relevant authorities to ensure, first, that disability hate crime is recognised and, secondly, that the attitudes behind it are dealt with.

Y Prif Weinidog: Gwn fod hyn wedi cael ei ddwyn ​​i sylw’r cyhoedd gan un o fy etholwyr—rhywun rwy’n adnabod yn dda iawn ac sydd wedi profi troseddau casineb anabledd. Mae’n anodd amgyffred rhywun yn mynegi barn o’r fath, ond y gwir amdani yw bod yna bobl sydd wedi dioddef cael y math yna o gasineb wedi’i anelu atynt. Byddwn yn edrych i weithio gyda’r holl awdurdodau perthnasol i sicrhau, yn gyntaf, bod troseddau casineb anabledd yn cael eu cydnabod ac, yn ail, yr ymdrinnir â’r agweddau y tu ôl iddynt.

2.45 p.m.

The First Minister: You cannot take a snapshot and use it as full evidence of why something should happen. That is what seems to have happened here. We know that our coastguard stations are vital to ensuring the safety of so many people around our coastlines. No case has been made to close any of them and our response will make that perfectly clear.

Y Prif Weinidog: Ni allwch gymryd cipolwg a’i ddefnyddio fel tystiolaeth lawn o pam y dylai rhywbeth ddigwydd. Dyna sy’n edrych fel ei fod wedi digwydd yma. Rydym yn gwybod bod ein gorsafoedd gwylwyr y glannau yn hanfodol er mwyn sicrhau diogelwch nifer o bobl o amgylch ein harfordiroedd. Nid oes achos wedi’i wneud i gau yr un ohonynt, a bydd ein hymateb yn gwneud hynny’n hollol glir.

Byron Davies: Will you join me in paying tribute to the Swansea coastguard personnel and the local campaign group, who are running a first-class campaign to prevent the closure? I was extremely grateful to meet the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport, Mike Penning MP, together with my colleague Suzy Davies, in Swansea and make our case strongly for the retention of the Swansea coastguard. It was interesting to hear the background to the consultation and the lack of action by the previous Government on creating a suitable level of national resilience in the coastguard. What discussions have you held with the current Government—or any previous Government—about creating a national resilience for dealing with major crises in the waters around Wales?

Byron Davies: A wnewch chi ymuno â mi i dalu teyrnged i staff gwylwyr y glannau Abertawe a’r grŵp ymgyrch leol, sydd yn rhedeg ymgyrch ragorol i atal y cau? Yr oeddwn yn hynod o ddiolchgar i gwrdd â’r Is-Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Seneddol dros Drafnidiaeth, Mike Penning AS, gyda fy nghyd-Aelod Suzy Davies, yn Abertawe a gwneud ein hachos yn gryf i gadw gwylwyr y glannau Abertawe ar agor. Yr oedd yn ddiddorol clywed cefndir i’r ymgynghoriad a’r diffyg gweithredu gan y Llywodraeth flaenorol ar greu lefel addas o hydwythdedd cenedlaethol yng ngwasanaeth gwylwyr y glannau. Pa drafodaethau a gawsoch gyda’r Lywodraeth bresennol—neu unrhyw Lywodraeth flaenorol—am greu hydwythdedd cenedlaethol ar gyfer delio ag argyfyngau mawr yn y dyfroedd o amgylch Cymru?

The First Minister: The current UK Government has been in place for some time and to try to suggest that its plans to close coastguard stations are somehow controlled from the grave by the previous Government just does not wash. It just does not work that way. The UK Government must take responsibility for the decisions that it proposes. It must take responsibility for getting rid of the winter fuel allowances, despite promises by the Prime Minister to the contrary. It must take responsibility for cutting concessionary bus travel. It must take responsibility for the attempted decision to close coastguard stations, putting people’s lives in jeopardy. That decision will be taken by this UK Government, not by the previous UK Government. They won the election; it is about time that they took responsibility.

 Y Prif Weinidog: Bu Llywodraeth bresennol y DU yn ei lle ers peth amser ac nid yw ceisio awgrymu, rywsut, bod ei chynlluniau i gau gorsafoedd gwylwyr y glannau gan y Llywodraeth flaenorol yn cael eu rheoli  o’r bedd yn tycio. Nid yw’n gweithio’r ffordd honno. Mae’n rhaid i Lywodraeth y DU gymryd cyfrifoldeb am y penderfyniadau y mae’n eu cynnig. Rhaid iddi gymryd cyfrifoldeb am gael gwared â’r lwfansau tanwydd gaeaf, er gwaethaf addewidion gan y Prif Weinidog i’r gwrthwyneb. Rhaid iddi gymryd cyfrifoldeb am dorri teithio rhatach ar fysiau. Rhaid iddi gymryd cyfrifoldeb am geisio gwneud y penderfyniad i gau gorsafoedd gwylwyr y glannau, gan roi bywydau pobl mewn perygl. Caiff y penderfyniad hwnnw ei gymryd gan Lywodraeth y DU, nid gan Lywodraeth flaenorol y DU. Maent wedi ennill yr etholiad; mae’n bryd iddynt gymryd cyfrifoldeb.

Mike Hedges: As the Member who represents the port of Swansea, I join other colleagues in expressing my concern about the proposed closure of the coastguard station in Swansea. Our opposition is based solely on safety grounds. When you send your response, will you make it clear that the opposition comes from the whole of Swansea, not just those parts that are covered by the coastguard station, and that safety is the cause for our concern?

Mike Hedges: Fel yr Aelod sy’n cynrychioli porthladd Abertawe, ymunaf â chydweithwyr eraill yn mynegi fy mhryder ynghylch y bwriad i gau gorsaf gwylwyr y glannau yn Abertawe. Mae ein gwrthwynebiad yn seiliedig ar sail diogelwch yn unig. Pan rydych yn anfon eich ymateb, a wnewch yn glir y daw’r gwrthwynebiad o Abertawe i gyd, nid dim ond y rhannau hynny a gwmpesir gan orsaf gwylwyr y glannau, ac mai diogelwch yw’r achos am ein pryder?

The First Minister: The opposition comes from the whole of Wales. On this side of the Chamber we are wholly opposed to closing any coastguard stations, and certainly I do not want to see one coastguard station played off against another, which is the impression that is given by the consultation. We all want to see safe passage of ships through Welsh waters and it is important that there is adequate coastguard cover. That means retaining these stations.

Y Prif Weinidog: Mae’r gwrthwynebiad yn dod o Gymru gyfan. Ar yr ochr hon i’r Siambr rydym yn gwrthwynebu’n gyfan gwbl gau unrhyw orsaf gwylwyr y glannau, ac yn sicr nid wyf am weld un orsaf gwylwyr y glannau yn cael ei chwarae yn erbyn y llall, sef yr argraff a roddwyd gan yr ymgynghoriad. Yr ydym oll am weld llongau yn tramwyo’n ddiogel trwy ddyfroedd Cymru ac mae’n bwysig y ceir cefnogaeth ddigonol gan wylwyr y glannau. Mae hynny’n golygu cadw’r gorsafoedd hyn ar agor.

Peter Black: First Minister, you will be aware that this is not just a Swansea issue, as the coastguard station covers the whole of the Bristol channel. A number of statutory bodies, local councils and port authorities, have a vested interest in making sure that it survives. In responding to this consultation, is the Welsh Government considering taking more of a leadership role to try to co-ordinate those bodies—the councils and port authorities and so on—to ensure that we give a combined response from the whole of south Wales on the proposed closure?

Peter Black: Brif Weinidog, byddwch yn ymwybodol nad yw hwn yn fater Abertawe yn unig, gan fod yr orsaf gwylwyr y glannau yn ymdrin â môr Hafren i gyd. Mae gan nifer o gyrff statudol, cynghorau lleol ac awdurdodau porthladdoedd ddiddordeb personol mewn gwneud yn siŵr ei fod yn goroesi. Wrth ymateb i’r ymgynghoriad hwn, a yw Llywodraeth Cymru’n ystyried cymryd mwy o arweiniad i geisio cydlynu’r cyrff hynny—y cynghorau a’r awdurdodau porthladdoedd ac ati—i sicrhau ein bod yn rhoi ymateb cyfunol gan dde Cymru gyfan ar y bwriad i gau?

The First Minister: There will be a response from Government. We will look to work with all those who wish to make a response to the consultation to ensure that the response is, if not uniform, then not contradictory. One issue that I discussed with the campaigners at the Swansea coastguard station was ensuring that they worked with campaigners from the other coastguard stations so that an all-Wales response could be provided.

Y Prif Weinidog: Bydd ymateb gan y Llywodraeth. Byddwn yn edrych i weithio gyda phawb sydd yn dymuno ymateb i’r ymgynghoriad er mwyn sicrhau bod yr ymateb, os nad yn unffurf, o leiaf ddim yn gwrthddweud ei hun. Un mater y gwnes i drafod gyda’r ymgyrchwyr yng ngorsaf gwylwyr y glannau Abertawe oedd sicrhau eu bod yn gweithio gyda’r ymgyrchwyr o orsafoedd gwylwyr y glannau eraill fel y gellid darparu ymateb Cymru gyfan.

The First Minister: The paper ‘Sustainable Social Services in Wales: A Framework for Action’ sets out our plans to improve the lives of looked-after children. They include programmes to support families through integrated family support services, and the Families First programme aims to ensure that there is a range of preventative services and rehabilitation services available. There will also be a compliance unit to ensure that these arrangements are robust.

Y Prif Weinidog: Mae’r papur ‘Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol Cynaliadwy i Gymru: Fframwaith Gweithredu’ yn nodi ein cynlluniau i wella bywydau plant sy’n derbyn gofal. Maent yn cynnwys rhaglenni i gefnogi teuluoedd drwy’r gwasanaethau integredig cymorth i deuluoedd, ac mae’r rhaglen Teuluoedd yn Gyntaf yn anelu at sicrhau y ceir amrywiaeth o wasanaethau ataliol a gwasanaethau adsefydlu. Hefyd, bydd uned cydymffurfio i sicrhau bod y trefniadau hyn yn gadarn.

William Graham: With regard to this subject, you will know, First Minister, that the figures are even worse than described previously, as there has been a 44 per cent increase over the last decade and there are over 1,250 placements in south-east Wales alone. With regard to the attainment of those aged 19 and over, only 48 per cent are known to be in education, training or employment. Although I acknowledge that your Government has made significant efforts to alleviate this problem, can you assure us that local authorities are given the support and tools to ensure that this job is completed? 

William Graham: O ran y pwnc hwn, byddwch yn gwybod, Brif Weinidog, fod y ffigurau hyd yn oed yn waeth nag a ddisgrifiwyd yn flaenorol, gan y bu cynnydd o 44 y cant dros y degawd diwethaf a cheir dros 1,250 o leoliadau yn ne-ddwyrain Cymru yn unig. O ran cyrhaeddiad y rheini sy’n 19 oed a throsodd, dim ond 48 y cant a wyddom sydd mewn addysg, hyfforddiant neu gyflogaeth. Er y cydnabyddaf fod eich Llywodraeth wedi gwneud ymdrechion sylweddol i leddfu’r broblem hon, a allwch ein sicrhau bod awdurdodau lleol yn cael y cymorth a’r offer i sicrhau bod y gwaith hwn yn cael ei gwblhau?

The First Minister: Through the paper and legislation, we aim to ensure that. The manifesto commitment came about because of the figures that showed that looked-after children were significantly more likely to do worse at school; indeed, there were figures that suggested that looked-after children were more likely to end up in prison than in university. That situation could not continue, and that is why we are determined, through the measures that I have outlined, to ensure that that gap closes significantly.

Y Prif Weinidog: Drwy’r papur a’r ddeddfwriaeth, anelwn at sicrhau hynny. Fe ddaeth yr ymrwymiad maniffesto i fodolaeth oherwydd y ffigurau a ddangosodd fod plant sy’n cael gofal yn llawer mwy tebygol o wneud yn waeth yn yr ysgol; yn wir, roedd ffigurau yn awgrymu bod plant sy’n derbyn gofal yn fwy tebygol o ddiweddu yn y carchar nag yn y brifysgol. Ni allai’r sefyllfa honno barhau, a dyna pam yr ydym yn benderfynol, drwy’r mesurau a amlinellwyd gennyf, i sicrhau bod y bwlch hwnnw yn cau yn sylweddol.

Jocelyn Davies: First Minister, are you aware that the report, ‘Spotlight on Kinship Care’, revealed that the highest rate of kinship care is in Merthyr Tydfil? Kinship care prevents children from needing placements and experiencing the problems that we have heard about this afternoon. Since the report’s publication, children’s charities have raised concerns about the support for those giving care to relatives. The Children’s Commissioner for Wales has also said that more support from Government is needed, especially for grandparents. What steps has your Government taken to help relatives of children who would otherwise be taken into care?

Jocelyn Davies: Brif Weinidog, a ydych yn ymwybodol bod yr adroddiad, ‘Spotlight on Kinship Care’, wedi datgelu bod y gyfradd uchaf o ofal carennydd ym Merthyr Tudful? Mae gofal carennydd yn atal plant rhag bod ag angen lleoliadau a dioddef o’r problemau y clywsom amdanynt y prynhawn yma. Ers cyhoeddi’r adroddiad, mae elusennau plant wedi codi pryderon ynghylch y gefnogaeth ar gyfer y rhai sy’n gofalu am berthnasau. Mae Comisiynydd Plant Cymru hefyd wedi dweud bod angen mwy o gefnogaeth gan y Llywodraeth, yn enwedig ar gyfer neiniau a theidiau. Pa gamau y mae eich Llywodraeth wedi eu cymryd i helpu perthnasau’r plant a fyddai fel arall yn cael eu cymryd i mewn i ofal?

The First Minister: We have the carers strategy, and it is also important that we recognise, as we have done, that many children are acting in a caring role in all parts of Wales. We will look to ensure that our strategy continues to be effective in the years to come.

Y Prif Weinidog: Mae gennym y strategaeth gofalwyr, ac mae hefyd yn bwysig inni gydnabod, fel yr ydym wedi’i wneud, bod llawer o blant yn gweithredu mewn rôl gofalu ym mhob rhan o Gymru. Byddwn yn edrych i sicrhau bod ein strategaeth yn parhau i fod yn effeithiol yn y blynyddoedd i ddod.

Jenny Rathbone: I applaud the efforts of educationists and others involved with looked-after children in ensuring that their examination success rates are much higher and that there are far fewer of them not in education, training or work. I spoke to several looked-after young people at the recent youth forum debate that took place in Cardiff over the summer, and I was concerned to hear consistently from them that they had been looked-after from an early age, yet had never been considered for adoption. What does the Government plan to do, given the increase in the number of looked-after children, to increase the levels of adoption and speed-up the adoption process?

Jenny Rathbone: Cymeradwyaf ymdrechion addysgwyr ac eraill sy’n ymwneud â phlant sy’n derbyn gofal i sicrhau bod eu cyfraddau llwyddiant arholiad yn llawer uwch a bod llai o lawer ohonynt nad ydynt mewn addysg, hyfforddiant neu waith. Siaradais â sawl berson ifanc sy’n derbyn gofal yn y ddadl fforwm ieuenctid diweddar a gynhaliwyd yng Nghaerdydd dros yr haf, ac yr oeddwn yn bryderus i glywed yn gyson ganddynt eu bod wedi derbyn gofal o oedran cynnar, ac eto byth wedi’u hystyried ar gyfer mabwysiadu. Beth mae’r Llywodraeth yn bwriadu ei wneud, o gofio’r cynnydd yn y nifer o blant sy’n derbyn gofal, i gynyddu lefelau mabwysiadu a chyflymu’r broses fabwysiadu?

The First Minister: You are quite right to point out that placement stability is key. If children are moved around different homes over the course of their early lives, it is far more difficult for them to settle. Educational achievement is not just about what happens in school but what happens at home. I agree that there need to be quality adoption support services and I know that the adoption process is a central consideration of the family justice review’s work.

Y Prif Weinidog: Yr ydych yn hollol iawn i nodi bod sefydlogrwydd lleoliad yn allweddol. Os yw plant yn symud o gwmpas cartrefi gwahanol yn ystod eu bywydau cynnar, mae’n llawer mwy anodd iddynt setlo. Nid yw cyflawniad addysgol yn ymwneud yn unig â beth fydd yn digwydd yn yr ysgol, ond hefyd yr hyn sy’n digwydd yn y cartref.  Cytunaf fod angen cael gwasanaethau cymorth mabwysiadu o ansawdd a gwn fod y broses fabwysiadu yn ystyriaeth ganolog yng ngwaith yr adolygiad cyfiawnder teuluol.

The First Minister: We have just—it was this week, almost—began the services to Fishguard from Carmarthen. It is the first time for many years, I suspect, that there has been a discrete service to Fishguard that does not rely on connecting with ferry services, which I trust that people there will welcome. With regard to the stations at Bow Street and Carno, we have received the feasibility reports from the regional transport consortium for mid Wales and we are discussing the prioritisation of these projects in relation to other projects in its regional transport plan.

Y Prif Weinidog: Rydym newydd—yr wythnos hon, bron—ddechrau’r gwasanaethau i Abergwaun o Gaerfyrddin. Dyma’r tro cyntaf ers blynyddoedd lawer, yr wyf yn amau, y bu gwasanaeth ar wahân i Abergwaun nad yw’n dibynnu ar gysylltu â gwasanaethau fferi, a hyderaf y bydd y bobl yno’n ei groesawu. O ran y gorsafoedd yn Bow Street a Carno, yr ydym wedi derbyn yr adroddiadau dichonoldeb gan y consortiwm trafnidiaeth rhanbarthol ar gyfer canolbarth Cymru ac yr ydym yn trafod blaenoriaethu’r prosiectau hyn mewn perthynas â phrosiectau eraill yn ei gynllun trafnidiaeth rhanbarthol.

Joyce Watson: I am sure that the First Minister will share my optimism and confidence that the additional Fishguard-to-Carmarthen train service that he has just mentioned will be a big success story for north Pembrokeshire and that region. However, it is an experimental service and it is a case of ‘use it or lose it’ for the next three years; therefore, it is vital that all integrated projects are up and running as soon as possible to ensure that local people and visitors can make maximum use of it. Will he therefore ensure that the Welsh Government continues to work alongside Pembrokeshire County Council and partners so that the arrangements for those bus connections are complete at the earliest opportunity and, if possible, can he provide any updates in the future on the focal project to reopen the Fishguard and Goodwick station?

Joyce Watson: Yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd y Prif Weinidog yn rhannu fy ffydd a hyder y bydd y gwasanaeth trên ychwanegol o Abergwaun i Gaerfyrddin y mae newydd ei grybwyll yn llwyddiant mawr i ogledd sir Benfro a’r rhanbarth hwnnw. Fodd bynnag, mae’n wasanaeth arbrofol ac mae’n fater o’i ddefnyddio neu’i golli dros y dair blynedd nesaf; felly, mae’n hanfodol bod y prosiectau integredig i gyd ar waith mor fuan â phosibl i sicrhau y gall pobl leol ac ymwelwyr wneud y defnydd mwyaf posibl ohono. A wnaiff sicrhau felly bod Llywodraeth Cymru yn parhau i weithio ochr-yn-ochr â Chyngor Sir Penfro a phartneriaid fel bod y trefniadau ar gyfer y cysylltiadau bysiau hynny yn gyflawn ar y cyfle cynharaf ac, os yn bosibl, a all roi unrhyw ddiweddariadau yn y dyfodol ar y prosiect ffocal i ailagor gorsaf Abergwaun a Wdig?

The First Minister: I am sure that those can be provided, in time, by the appropriate Minister. I understand that Pembrokeshire council has worked with the local commercial bus operator to link the scheduled bus service with the additional trains at the harbour station. It is crucial that there is integration between the two different modes of transport in order to make them both more effective.

Y Prif Weinidog: Yr wyf yn siŵr y gellir darparu’r rheini, ymhen amser, gan y Gweinidog priodol. Deallaf fod cyngor sir Benfro wedi gweithio gyda’r gweithredwr bysiau masnachol lleol i gysylltu’r gwasanaeth bws a drefnwyd gyda’r trenau ychwanegol yng ngorsaf yr harbwr. Mae’n hanfodol bod integreiddio rhwng y ddau wahanol fodd o drafnidiaeth er mwyn gwneud y ddau yn fwy effeithiol.

Russell George: One issue that several constituents have raised with me relates to the number of carriages on Arriva Trains Wales services on the Birmingham to Aberystwyth route. Several people contacted my office last week to tell me that a two-carriage train from Shrewsbury to Aberystwyth was filled over capacity and that at least 120 people were standing. Those commuters obviously felt very uncomfortable and unsafe. I am sure that you will agree that that level of service is unacceptable, First Minister. Will you make representations to Arriva Trains Wales to ensure that it realises the importance of this route for business and tourists and that we cannot afford to have people being put off coming into Wales due to a poor transport system? Will you agree to write to Arriva Trains Wales?

Russell George: Un mater y mae nifer o etholwyr wedi godi gyda mi yw nifer y cerbydau ar wasanaethau Trenau Arriva Cymru ar y daith rhwng Birmingham ac Aberystwyth. Fe wnaeth nifer o bobl gysylltu â fy swyddfa’r wythnos diwethaf i ddweud wrthyf fod trên dau-gerbyd o’r Amwythig i Aberystwyth wedi’i lenwi dros gapasiti a bod o leiaf 120 o bobl yn sefyll. Yn amlwg, roedd y cymudwyr hynny’n teimlo’n anniogel ac anghyfforddus iawn. Yr wyf yn siŵr y byddwch yn cytuno bod y lefel gwasanaeth hwnnw yn annerbyniol, Brif Weinidog. A wnewch sylwadau i Drenau Arriva Cymru i sicrhau ei fod yn sylweddoli pwysigrwydd y llwybr hwn i fusnes a thwristiaid ac na allwn fforddio bod pobl ddim yn dod i Gymru oherwydd system drafnidiaeth wael? A wnewch gytuno i ysgrifennu at Drenau Arriva Cymru?

The First Minister: I will do that. It is unacceptable that people should have to suffer overcrowded trains. I know that many of the trains on the service have four carriages, but clearly not on that occasion. The national transport plan will look to introduce daytime hourly services between Aberystwyth and Shrewsbury, and I know that timetable options are being looked at at the moment. That should help to reduce overcrowding.

Y Prif Weinidog: Fe wnaf hynny. Mae’n annerbyniol bod pobl yn gorfod dioddef trenau gorlawn. Gwn fod gan lawer o’r trenau ar y gwasanaeth bedwar o gerbydau, ond yn amlwg nid ar yr achlysur hwnnw. Bydd y cynllun trafnidiaeth cenedlaethol yn edrych i gyflwyno gwasanaethau bob awr yn ystod y dydd rhwng Aberystwyth ac Amwythig, a gwn fod opsiynau amserlen yn cael eu hystyried ar hyn o bryd. Fe ddylai hynny helpu i leihau gorlenwi.

Elin Jones: Yr wyf yn croesawu’r hyn mae’r Prif Weinidog newydd ei ddweud. Gwnaeth y Llywodraeth flaenorol ymrwymiad i ariannu gwasanaethau bob awr rhwng Aberystwyth a’r Amwythig ac i’w cyflwyno yn ystod y flwyddyn ariannol hon. Yr wyf yn falch o glywed bod yr ymrwymiad hwnnw yn parhau ac y bydd y gwasanaethau hynny yn cael eu cyflwyno cyn mis Ebrill flwyddyn nesaf. Gofynnaf ichi gadarnhau hynny unwaith eto.

Elin Jones: I welcome what the First Minister has just said. The previous Government made a commitment to funding hourly services between Aberystwyth and Shrewsbury and to introducing them during this financial year. I am pleased to hear that that commitment stands and that those services will be introduced before April next year. I ask you to confirm that once again.

Y Prif Weinidog: Dyna’r hyn yr ydym eisiau ei wneud. Mae wastad yn rhaid edrych ar y sefyllfa ariannol, ond mae’n wir i ddweud bod y gwasanaeth rhwng Aberystwyth a’r Amwythig yn un prysur ac felly mae’n bwysig dros ben bod trenau ar gael er mwyn delio â’r nifer o bobl sydd eisiau defnyddio’r gwasanaeth.

The First Minister: That is what we want to do. We must always look at the financial situation, but it is true to say that the service between Aberystwyth and Shrewsbury is a busy one and therefore it is extremely important that trains are available in order to deal with the volume of people who want to use the service.

Jenny Rathbone: One problem facing railway services is the theft of copper wire from the overhead signals. Can you tell me what action the Government is taking to try to mitigate the worst effects of this?

Jenny Rathbone: Un broblem sy’n wynebu gwasanaethau rheilffyrdd yw dwyn gwifren gopr o’r signalau uwch ben. A allwch ddweud wrthyf ba gamau y mae’r Llywodraeth yn eu cymryd i geisio lliniaru effeithiau gwaethaf hyn?

The First Minister: It is an operational matter for Network Rail and the transport police, but officials discussed this matter with transport police as part of our regular quarterly meeting on 16 September. The transport police assured officials that they are regularly patrolling scrap metal merchants and acting on the intelligence that they receive. This work, by its nature, can often be reactive and many of these thefts are not known about beforehand, clearly, but are difficult to get intelligence on. Nevertheless, they are working hard to deal with these thefts in the light of the increase in the world price of copper.

Y Prif Weinidog: Mater gweithredol i Network Rail a’r heddlu trafnidiaeth yw hynny, ond mae swyddogion yn trafod y mater hwn gyda’r heddlu trafnidiaeth fel rhan o’n cyfarfod chwarterol rheolaidd ar 16 Medi. Fe wnaeth swyddogion yr heddlu trafnidiaeth sicrhau eu bod yn patrolio masnachwyr metel sgrap yn rheolaidd a gweithredu ar y wybodaeth maent yn ei dderbyn. Gall y gwaith hwn, oherwydd ei natur, yn aml fod yn adweithiol ac nid yw llawer o’r lladradau hyn yn hysbys ymlaen llaw, yn amlwg, ond mae’n anodd cael gwybodaeth arnynt. Serch hynny, maent yn gweithio’n galed i ddelio â’r lladradau hyn o gofio’r cynnydd ym mhris rhyngwladol copr.

3.00 p.m.

Alun Ffred Jones: Dylai creu economi lewyrchus fod yn un o flaenoriaethau’r Llywodraeth, ac un o’ch ymatebion yw creu y parthau menter hyn. Mae lefelau cyflogaeth eisoes yn uchel mewn tair o ardaloedd y parthau hyn, ond mae canolbarth Cymru a’r gorllewin, mae’n ymddangos, wedi cael eu hanwybyddu. A allech esbonio’r rhesymeg dros y lleoliadau hyn? Sut y gallwn osgoi’r perygl o gwmnïau peirianyddol yn symud o Lanelli i Lyn Ebwy, er enghraifft?

Alun Ffred Jones: One of the Government’s priorities should be to create a prosperous economy, and one of your responses is to create these entrepreneurship zones. Three of these are in areas where employment levels are already high, while mid Wales and the west, it appears, have been ignored. Could you explain the rationale behind choosing these locations? How can we avoid the danger of engineering companies moving from Llanelli to Ebbw Vale, for example?

Y Prif Weinidog: Mae’r rhain yn ardaloedd a all ddenu’r buddsoddiad iawn yn y meysydd diwydiannol yr ydym wedi eu dewis iddynt. Yr ydym yn ymwybodol o’r ffaith nad oes parth yn y gorllewin, ond yr ydym yn ystyried un ardal yn y gorllewin, a gobeithir y gellir gwneud datganiad yn ei gylch yn y dyfodol agos.

The First Minister: These are areas that are able to attract real investment in the fields of industry that we have selected for them. We are aware of the fact that there is no zone in west Wales, but we are looking at one area in west Wales, and we hope that an announcement can be made about that in the near future.

Eluned Parrott: I listened in surprise when you stated in answer to Kirsty Williams that you were not aware of a site in Ebbw Vale large enough to accommodate the Jaguar car engine plant. Will it be a priority in this fourth Assembly to identify a site, either in or near our nation’s newly announced automotive enterprise zone, that is big enough to host some form of car factory?

Eluned Parrott: Gwrandewais mewn syndod pan ddywedoch mewn ateb i Kirsty Williams nad ydych yn gwybod am safle yng Nglyn Ebwy sy’n ddigon mawr ar gyfer ffatri injan ceir Jaguar. A fydd yn flaenoriaeth yn y pedwerydd Cynulliad hwn i adnabod safle, naill ai yn, neu gerllaw’r parth menter modurol sydd newydd ei gyhoeddi, sydd yn ddigon mawr i gynnal rhyw fath o ffatri geir?

The First Minister: Of course, it depends on the size of it. What we want to do with the automotive enterprise zone is to attract a number of different investors and manufacturing plants so that they can all benefit from the skills that will be created there. That is why the area was chosen for the auto enterprise zone.

Y Prif Weinidog: Wrth gwrs, mae’n dibynnu ar ei maint. Yr hyn yr ydym am ei wneud â’r parth menter modurol yw denu nifer o wahanol fuddsoddwyr a safleoedd gweithgynhyrchu fel y gallant i gyd elwa ar y sgiliau a fydd yn cael eu creu yno. Dyna pam y dewiswyd yr ardal ar gyfer y parth menter modurol.

Kenneth Skates: First Minister, I understand that officials at Llangollen International Musical Eisteddfod have written to you regarding their financial situation after the Arts Council of Wales announced that it would be cutting core revenue support for the event. It is worth noting that, in the past, for every £1 that the arts council has invested in the international Eisteddfod, more than £100 has been generated for the local economy, so it is of enormous value to Llangollen, north Wales and, indeed, the whole of Wales. I would not expect you to make a comment on the specifics of the International Eisteddfod’s funding, but would you not agree that we need to do all we can in partnership with other funding bodies to ensure that the International Eisteddfod is placed on a secure financial footing for the future?

Kenneth Skates: Brif Weinidog, yr wyf yn deall bod swyddogion yn Eisteddfod Gerddorol Ryngwladol Llangollen wedi ysgrifennu atoch ynghylch eu sefyllfa ariannol ar ôl i Gyngor Celfyddydau Cymru gyhoeddi y byddai’n torri cymorth refeniw craidd ar gyfer yr ŵyl. Mae’n werth nodi, yn y gorffennol, am bob £1 mae cyngor y celfyddydau wedi fuddsoddi yn yr Eisteddfod ryngwladol, mae mwy na £100 wedi ei gynhyrchu ar gyfer yr economi leol, felly mae’n werthfawr iawn i Langollen, gogledd Cymru ac, yn wir, i Gymru gyfan. Ni fyddwn yn disgwyl ichi wneud sylw ar fanylion cyllid yr Eisteddfod Ryngwladol, ond oni fyddech yn cytuno bod angen i ni wneud popeth yn ein gallu mewn partneriaeth â chyrff cyllido eraill i sicrhau bod yr Eisteddfod Ryngwladol yn cael ei rhoi ar sail ariannol gadarn ar gyfer y dyfodol?

The First Minister: When I was in Llangollen during the summer, this issue was discussed with me. I have now received a letter from the International Eisteddfod, and I will be considering my response.

Y Prif Weinidog: Pan oeddwn yn Llangollen yn ystod yr haf, cafodd y mater hwn ei drafod gyda mi. Yr wyf yn awr wedi derbyn llythyr oddi wrth yr Eisteddfod Ryngwladol, a byddaf yn ystyried fy ymateb.

The First Minister: I am not sure what these hurdles are. All I can tell you is that the Government’s only role, as far as the bid is concerned, is to provide a letter of support to any organisation that can bid for a top-level domain.

Y Prif Weinidog: Nid wyf yn siŵr beth yw’r rhwystrau hyn. Y cyfan y gallaf ddweud wrthych yw mai unig rôl y Llywodraeth, mor belled ag y mae’r cais yn y cwestiwn, yw darparu llythyr o gefnogaeth i unrhyw sefydliad sy’n gallu cynnig am barth lefel-uchaf.

Simon Thomas: A yw’r Prif Weinidog yn cytuno mai un o rinweddau sosialaeth ddemocrataidd yw ymyrryd pan fo’r farchnad yn methu? Felly, os yw’r farchnad yn methu â darparu parth lefel uchaf i’r genedl, oni ddylai’r Llywodraeth roi ei chefnogaeth i unrhyw ymgyrch neu gwmni preifat sy’n gallu darparu presenoldeb annibynnol i’r genedl ar y we? Yr oedd yn fwriad gan y Llywodraeth flaenorol sefydlu’r fath bresenoldeb; a yw fwriad gan y Llywodraeth bresennol?

Simon Thomas: Does the First Minister agree that one of the benefits of social democracy is to intervene when the market fails? Therefore, if the market fails to provide a high-level domain for the nation, should the Government not give its support to any campaign or private company that can provide an independent online presence for the nation? It was an intention of the previous Government to establish such a presence; it is the current Government’s intention to do so?

Y Prif Weinidog: Nid wyf yn anghytuno â hynny. Yr ydym yn gwybod am ddau gorff a all wneud hyn, a byddai’n rhaid iddynt roi cais i mewn erbyn dechrau’r flwyddyn nesaf. Yr ydym fel Llywodraeth yn hapus i gefnogi unrhyw gais call a synhwyrol; nid oes problem ynglŷn â gwneud hynny.

The First Minister: I do not disagree with that. There are two organisations that we know of that could do this, but they would have to submit a bid by the beginning of next year. We, as a Government, would be happy to support any sensible bid; there would be no problem with that.

Peter Black: The issue of a top-level domain has been ongoing for a number of years, and if you talk to the people who are involved in that process, they will tell you that they are concerned, because there are other bodies interested in trying to get the .cym domain, and that the Welsh Government is effectively dragging its feet. Can you assure the Assembly that that is not happening and that the Welsh Government is on top of this and is actively promoting the acquisition of a large top-level domain as soon as possible?

Peter Black: Mae’r mater parth lefel-uchaf wedi bod yn mynd ymlaen ers nifer o flynyddoedd, ac os ydych yn siarad â’r bobl sy’n ymwneud â’r broses honno, byddant yn dweud wrthych eu bod yn pryderu, oherwydd mae cyrff eraill sydd â diddordeb mewn ceisio cael y parth .cym, a bod Llywodraeth Cymru yn llusgo ei thraed i bob pwrpas. A allwch sicrhau’r Cynulliad nad yw hynny’n digwydd a bod Llywodraeth Cymru yn mynd i’r afael â hyn ac yn mynd ati i hyrwyddo caffael parth lefel-uchaf fawr cyn gynted â phosibl?

The First Minister: There are two interested organisations, so it is certainly not the case that there is no interest out there. As I said, we would look to support any organisation that can put forward a full application, which must be made by January of next year. We look forward to seeing those applications and assessing whether those applications can receive our support.

Y Prif Weinidog: Mae dau sefydliad sydd â diddordeb, felly, yn sicr, nid yw’n wir nad oes unrhyw ddiddordeb allan yna. Fel y dywedais, byddem yn ceisio cefnogi unrhyw sefydliad sy’n gallu cyflwyno cais llawn, y bydd rhaid ei wneud erbyn mis Ionawr y flwyddyn nesaf. Rydym yn edrych ymlaen at weld y ceisiadau hynny ac asesu a all y ceisiadau hynny dderbyn ein cefnogaeth.

The Minister for Finance and Leader of the House (Jane Hutt): I have a few changes to report to this week’s business. In addition to the First Minister’s statement earlier this afternoon on the Gleision colliery tragedy, the Deputy Minister for Children and Social Services will deliver an oral statement on Pembrokeshire County Council, and the item on the Environmental Permitting (England and Wales) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2011 has been postponed, following changes made to the timetable by the UK Government. Business for the next three weeks is as set out in the draft statement, which is available to Members on the agenda.

Y Gweinidog Cyllid ac Arweinydd y Tŷ (Jane Hutt): Mae gennyf ychydig o newidiadau i’w hadrodd i fusnes yr wythnos hon. Yn ogystal â datganiad y Prif Weinidog yn gynharach y prynhawn yma ar drychineb pwll glo Gleision, bydd y Dirprwy Weinidog Plant a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol yn cyflwyno datganiad llafar ar Gyngor Sir Penfro, ac mae’r eitem ar Reoliadau Caniatáu Amgylcheddol (Cymru a Lloegr) (Diwygio) (Rhif. 2) 2011 wedi cael ei ohirio, yn dilyn newidiadau a wnaed i’r amserlen gan Lywodraeth y DU. Mae’r busnes ar gyfer y tair wythnos nesaf fel y mae wedi’i nodi yn y datganiad drafft, sydd ar gael i’r Aelodau ar yr agenda.

William Graham: You will be well aware of the continuing success of the Abergavenny food festival, which has brought over £30 million and 250,000 people to Monmouthshire since it was launched in 1999. This local initiative has grown in this time to become an event that has generated global interest in Wales, Welsh food and Welsh cuisine. It is a driver for increased growth in the local economy and in tourism. Will you schedule a debate on the importance of food festivals in all regions of Wales and the requirement for a cross-cutting strategy to promote Welsh food produce and cuisine and Wales as a place to visit and invest?

William Graham: Byddwch yn ymwybodol iawn o lwyddiant parhaus gŵyl fwyd y Fenni, sydd wedi dod â dros £30 miliwn a 250,000 o bobl i Sir Fynwy ers cael ei lansio yn 1999. Mae’r fenter leol wedi tyfu yn y cyfnod hwn i ddod yn ddigwyddiad sydd wedi creu diddordeb byd-eang yng Nghymru a bwyd Cymreig. Mae’n sbardun ar gyfer mwy o dwf yn yr economi leol ac mewn twristiaeth. A wnewch chi drefnu dadl am bwysigrwydd gwyliau bwyd ym mhob ardal o Gymru a’r gofyn i gael strategaeth drawsbynciol i hyrwyddo cynnyrch bwyd o Gymru, a Chymru fel lle i ymweld ag ef a buddsoddi ynddo?

Jane Hutt: I am very much aware, given the good publicity, of the success of the Abergavenny food festival, despite the uncertain weather conditions. There are indeed very successful food festivals throughout Wales, including one in Cowbridge, in my constituency. It is clear that these festivals are supported by the Welsh Government, but they need the kind of co-ordination that you speak of, which is what the Minister is expecting.

Jane Hutt: Yr wyf yn ymwybodol iawn, o ystyried y cyhoeddusrwydd da, o lwyddiant gŵyl fwyd y Fenni, er gwaethaf y tywydd ansicr. Mae yn wir wyliau bwyd llwyddiannus iawn ledled Cymru, gan gynnwys un yn y Bont-faen, yn fy etholaeth i. Mae’n amlwg bod y gwyliau hyn yn cael eu cefnogi gan Lywodraeth Cymru, ond mae angen y math o gydlynu yr ydych yn siarad amdano, sef yr hyn y mae’r Gweinidog yn ei ddisgwyl.

Christine Chapman: Could we have a statement on the discussions that the Welsh Government has had with rail operators—this is similar to requests that other Members have made earlier regarding the provision of train services? I have been in contact with Arriva over the summer months, following complaints about its decision to halve the number of carriages at certain periods on the Aberdare to Cardiff line—it was allocating the stock elsewhere, it said, as the demand for carriages was deemed to be greater. This resulted in large volumes of passengers being squeezed into the remaining carriages. Many people had to stand, and some were even turned away. I find that quite unacceptable. We have made good progress on the Valleys lines, and there has been a huge increase in the number of people who use the services. At a time when we are trying to encourage the use of public transport, I was disappointed by this. Could the Welsh Government therefore make a statement on the matter?

Christine Chapman: A allem gael datganiad am y trafodaethau y mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi’u cael gyda gweithredwyr y rheilffordd— mae hyn yn debyg i geisiadau a wnaeth Aelodau eraill yn gynharach ynghylch darparu gwasanaethau trên? Bûm mewn cysylltiad ag Arriva dros fisoedd yr haf, yn dilyn cwynion am ei benderfyniad i haneru nifer y cerbydau ar gyfnodau penodol ar linell Aberdâr i Gaerdydd—yr oedd yn dyrannu’r stoc mewn mannau eraill, meddai, gan y barnwyd bod y galw am gerbydau yn fwy. Arweiniodd hyn at wasgu nifer fawr o deithwyr i mewn i’r cerbydau oedd yn weddill. Roedd rhaid i lawer o bobl sefyll, a throwyd rhai i ffwrdd hyd yn oed. Rwy’n meddwl bod hynny braidd yn annerbyniol. Rydym wedi gwneud cynnydd da ar reilffyrdd y Cymoedd, a bu cynnydd enfawr yn y nifer o bobl sy’n defnyddio’r gwasanaethau. Ar adeg pan yr ydym yn ceisio annog pobl i ddefnyddio trafnidiaeth gyhoeddus, cefais fy siomi gan hyn. Felly, all Llywodraeth Cymru wneud datganiad ar y mater?

Jane Hutt: The Member for Cynon Valley raises an important issue regarding the summer months and the arrangements that Arriva Trains Wales makes as part of its franchise agreement. I am sure that the Minister for transport will want to clarify that in due course. During the summer holiday period, Arriva Trains Wales does remove a small number of train carriages from the Cardiff to Valleys lines. The rationale for that is to provide additional capacity on busier routes in west Wales. However, if there are issues in that regard, they need to be reported to the Minister. I am sure that that will be taken forward.

Jane Hutt: Mae’r Aelod dros Gwm Cynon yn codi mater pwysig ynghylch misoedd yr haf a’r trefniadau mae Trenau Arriva Cymru yn eu gwneud fel rhan o’u cytundeb masnachfraint. Yr wyf yn sicr y bydd y Gweinidog trafnidiaeth am egluro hynny maes o law. Yn ystod cyfnod gwyliau’r haf, mae Trenau Arriva Cymru yn tynnu nifer fach o gerbydau trên oddi ar  reilffyrdd Caerdydd i’r Cymoedd. Y rhesymeg dros hynny yw darparu capasiti ychwanegol ar lwybrau prysur yng ngorllewin Cymru. Fodd bynnag, os oes problemau yn hynny o beth, mae angen iddynt gael eu hadrodd i’r Gweinidog. Yr wyf yn sicr y bydd hynny’n cael ei weithredu arno.

Simon Thomas: Weinidog, a gawn ddadl yn amser y Llywodraeth ar ddarlledu yng Nghymru? Mae’n siŵr y bydd nifer o Aelodau yn sôn am S4C, ond mae gennyf rywbeth mwy penodol i’w godi, sef cynllun iaith Ofcom. Mae’r Gweinidog Addysg a Sgiliau wedi cyhoeddi y bydd oedi o ddau fis cyn y gwneir penderfyniad ynghylch y cynllun iaith hwn. Bydd y penderfyniad yn effeithio ar nifer o orsafoedd radio cymunedol Cymru, ac ar yr ymgais bresennol i aildrwyddedu Radio Ceredigion. Oni ddylai’r Llywodraeth wneud penderfyniad buan ar y materion hyn? Oni ddylai gynnal trafodaeth ar ddarlledu, fel bod pawb yn y Siambr yn cael cyfle i fynegi eu pryderon a’u gobeithion ynghylch darlledu yng Nghymru yn y dyfodol?

Simon Thomas: Minister, could we have a debate in Government time on broadcasting in Wales? I am sure that a number of Members will have issues to raise on S4C, but I have a more specific issue, namely Ofcom’s Welsh language scheme. The Minister for Education and Skills has announced that there will be a delay of two months on a decision on the language scheme. This decision will impact upon a number of Wales’s community radio stations, including the current bid to relicense Radio Ceredigion. Should the Government not be making an early decision on these matters? Should the Government not hold a debate on broadcasting, so that all Members can express their concerns and hopes for broadcasting in Wales in the future?

Jane Hutt: The Minister has, as part of due process, been in correspondence with the Welsh Language Board about the referral of that Welsh language scheme. It is important that due process takes place, and representations are now required from Ofcom. I am sure that the Minister will report back when that has been concluded.

Jane Hutt: Mae’r Gweinidog, fel rhan o’r drefn briodol, wedi bod yn gohebu â Bwrdd yr Iaith Gymraeg am atgyfeirio’r cynllun iaith Gymraeg hwnnw. Mae’n bwysig bod y drefn briodol yn digwydd, ac mae angen sylwadau yn awr gan Ofcom. Yr wyf yn sicr y bydd y Gweinidog yn adrodd yn ôl pan fydd hynny wedi dod i ben.

Mark Isherwood: The Minister will no doubt be aware that a damning judgment against the Association of Voluntary Organisations in Wrexham was published during recess. It has attracted widespread public and media interest, which is ongoing. I therefore call for a statement by the Welsh Government on the implications of the report with regard to the Welsh Government’s administration of public funds, the delivery of Welsh Government programmes, and its appointment of the body as the grant-recipient body for the troubled Plas Madoc Communities First project, about which concerns were raised by the Wales Audit Office. The Minister for Local Government and Communities has written to me to emphasise that AVOW is currently taking the counsel’s advice on whether to appeal, but we are rapidly approaching the time limit on that. The Minister says that if AVOW decides not to appeal, or if it appeals and the judgment remains intact, he will ask it to confirm what action is being taken to ensure that the Government’s issues are addressed.

Mark Isherwood: Mae’n siŵr y bydd y Gweinidog yn ymwybodol bod dyfarniad damniol yn erbyn Cymdeithas Mudiadau Gwirfoddol Wrecsam wedi’i gyhoeddi yn ystod y toriad. Mae wedi denu diddordeb eang y cyhoedd a’r cyfryngau, sy’n parhau. Felly, galwaf am ddatganiad gan Lywodraeth Cymru ar oblygiadau’r adroddiad mewn perthynas â gweinyddiaeth Llywodraeth Cymru o arian cyhoeddus, cyflwyno rhaglenni Llywodraeth Cymru, a’i benodiad o’r corff fel y corff sy’n derbyn y grant ar gyfer prosiect Cymunedau yn Gyntaf Plas Madoc, sydd wedi bod mewn trafferthion, y mynegwyd pryderon amdano gan Swyddfa Archwilio Cymru. Mae’r Gweinidog Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau wedi ysgrifennu ataf i bwysleisio bod AVOW yn cymryd cyngor y cwnsler ar hyn o ran apelio, ond rydym yn prysur agosáu at y terfyn amser ar hynny. Dywed y Gweinidog os bydd AVOW yn penderfynu peidio apelio, neu os bydd yn apelio ac mae’r dyfarniad yn parhau yr un fath, bydd yn gofyn iddo gadarnhau pa gamau sy’n cael eu cymryd i sicrhau bod materion y Llywodraeth yn cael sylw.

However, this matter goes much deeper and further. The concerns highlighted in the report are damning. It says that the members of the tribunal were shocked at the manner in which the respondent conducted a grievance meeting. The conclusion that it reached, without hesitation, was that the grievance processes were a sham. A grant-recipient body, as you are aware, is responsible specifically for employment and financial procedures, yet I now understand that the concerns regarding governance are longstanding and are not recent revelations. I therefore call for a wider statement and a commitment to conducting an enquiry, if an appeal does not go ahead or is not upheld.

Fodd bynnag, mae’r mater hwn yn mynd yn llawer dyfnach a phellach. Roedd y pryderon a amlygwyd yn yr adroddiad yn ddamniol. Mae’n dweud bod aelodau’r tribiwnlys wedi cael eu synnu at y modd y cynhaliodd yr ymatebydd gyfarfod cwyno. Y casgliad y daeth iddo, heb betruso, oedd bod y prosesau cwyno yn ffug. Mae corff sy’n derbyn grant, fel y gwyddoch, yn gyfrifol yn benodol am weithdrefnau cyflogaeth ac ariannol, ac eto yr wyf yn deall nawr bod y pryderon ynghylch llywodraethu yn hirsefydlog ac nad ydynt yn ddatgeliadau diweddar. Felly, galwaf am ddatganiad ehangach ac ymrwymiad i gynnal ymchwiliad, os nad yw apêl yn mynd yn ei flaen neu os nad yw yn cael ei gadarnhau.

Jane Hutt: I do not believe that this is the right place to raise such an issue. As the regional Member for North Wales has said, correspondence with the Minister is under way. We should leave it at that at this stage.

Jane Hutt: Nid wyf yn credu mai dyma’r lle iawn i godi mater o’r fath. Fel y mae’r Aelod rhanbarthol dros Ogledd Cymru wedi dweud, mae gohebiaeth gyda’r Gweinidog ar y gweill. Dylem ei adael ar hynny ar hyn o bryd.

The Presiding Officer: Before I call the next speaker, I remind Members that this is a point at which they can ask the Minister questions, rather than giving us the benefit of their great knowledge of many items.

Y Llywydd: Cyn imi alw ar y siaradwr nesaf, hoffwn atgoffa’r Aelodau mai dyma’r adeg lle gallant ofyn cwestiynau i’r Gweinidog, yn hytrach na rhannu eu gwybodaeth helaeth o lawer o eitemau gyda ni.

3.15 p.m.

Eluned Parrott: As you know, there is significant anxiety in some communities over a process called hydraulic fracturing, which is also known as fracking, which aims to capture gas trapped in rock layers. One such proposal for exploratory drilling at Llandow in your constituency has been re-presented to the Vale of Glamorgan Council recently. Minister, will you set aside some time for a debate on this controversial and important issue?

Eluned Parrott: Fel y gwyddoch, mae pryder sylweddol mewn rhai cymunedau dros broses a elwir yn hollti hydrolig, sy’n cael ei adnabod hefyd fel ffracio, sy’n ceisio cipio nwy a drapiwyd mewn haenau creigiau. Fe ailgyflwynwyd un cynnig o’r fath ar gyfer drilio archwiliol yn Llandŵ yn eich etholaeth chi i Gyngor Bro Morgannwg yn ddiweddar. Weinidog, a wnewch neilltuo peth amser ar gyfer dadl ar y mater pwysig a dadleuol hwn?

Jane Hutt: This is an important point and the Minister is closely engaged in the consideration of these matters. Of course, we would welcome the UK Government working with the devolved administrations across the UK to put in place a robust and evidence-based policy framework for shale gas in the UK, because it is within its licensing powers. However, this is an issue that the Minister is looking at closely.

Jane Hutt: Mae hwn yn bwynt pwysig ac mae’r Gweinidog yn cydweithio’n agos wrth ystyried y materion hyn. Wrth gwrs, byddem yn croesawu Llywodraeth y DU yn gweithio gyda’r gweinyddiaethau datganoledig ledled y DU i sefydlu fframwaith polisi cadarn sy’n seiliedig ar dystiolaeth ar gyfer nwy siâl yn y DU, gan ei fod o fewn ei bwerau trwyddedu. Fodd bynnag, mae hwn yn fater y mae’r Gweinidog yn edrych arno’n agos.

Jocelyn Davies: Minister, are you aware that ambulance response times in the south-east continue to cause concern? Recently, the South Wales Argus featured the case of a young rugby player who sustained a very serious injury, but who had to wait an agonising two hours before the ambulance arrived. He was on the field, of course, and it was pouring with rain. Match officials apparently made 10 999 calls fearing that the lad would go into shock. Therefore, will you bring forward a Government debate on the ambulance service and clarify whether it is Welsh Government policy that injuries sustained during sport should be a low priority?

Jocelyn Davies: Weinidog, a ydych yn ymwybodol bod amseroedd ymateb ambiwlansys yn y de-ddwyrain yn parhau i beri pryder? Yn ddiweddar, fe gyhoeddodd y South Wales Argus erthygl nodwedd ar achos chwaraewr rygbi ifanc a wnaeth ddioddef anaf difrifol iawn, ond yr oedd yn gorfod aros am ddwy awr arteithiol cyn i’r ambiwlans gyrraedd. Yr oedd ar y cae, wrth gwrs, ac yr oedd yn arllwys y glaw. Fe wnaeth swyddogion y gêm, mae’n debyg, 10 o alwadau 999 gan ofni y byddai’r bachgen yn mynd i mewn i sioc. Felly, a wnewch gyflwyno dadl Llywodraeth ar y gwasanaeth ambiwlans ac egluro a yw’n bolisi Llywodraeth Cymru y dylai anafiadau a gafwyd yn ystod chwaraeon fod yn flaenoriaeth isel?

Jane Hutt: The Minister for Health and Social Services regularly receives updates and statistics relating to the performance of the ambulance service, and holds the Welsh Ambulance Services NHS Trust to account, not only in relation to the statistics, but the complaints—such as the one you have just described—that Assembly Members receive. I am sure that the Minister will want to respond in due course to the particular points that you have raised.

Jane Hutt: Mae’r Gweinidog Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol yn derbyn diweddariadau ac ystadegau yn rheolaidd sy’n ymwneud â pherfformiad y gwasanaeth ambiwlans, ac yn dwyn Ymddiriedolaeth GIG Gwasanaethau Ambiwlans Cymru i gyfrif, nid yn unig mewn perthynas â’r ystadegau, ond y cwynion—fel yr un yr ydych newydd ei ddisgrifio—y mae Aelodau’r Cynulliad yn eu derbyn. Yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd y Gweinidog yn dymuno ymateb maes o law i’r pwyntiau penodol a godwyd gennych.

Darren Millar: Minister, could we have a Government statement on wheelchair services in Wales? It is now over a year since the Health, Wellbeing and Local Government Committee in the third Assembly produced its report on wheelchair services. Following the publication of that report, the Government indicated that it would implement a number of the report’s recommendations, and the service seemed to improve for service users for some time afterwards. However, a number of constituents have recently made representations to my office regarding significant delays in accessing new chairs or having their chairs repaired, particularly in north Wales. Would it be appropriate for the Minister to give us an update on the implementation of the recommendations in the report?

Darren Millar: Weinidog, a allem gael datganiad gan y Llywodraeth ar wasanaethau cadeiriau olwyn yng Nghymru? Mae bellach dros flwyddyn ers i’r Pwyllgor Iechyd, Lles a Llywodraeth Leol yn y trydydd Cynulliad gynhyrchu ei adroddiad ar wasanaethau cadeiriau olwyn. Yn dilyn cyhoeddi’r adroddiad hwnnw, dywedodd y Llywodraeth y byddai’n gweithredu nifer o argymhellion yr adroddiad, ac roedd yn ymddangos bod y gwasanaeth yn gwella ar gyfer defnyddwyr gwasanaeth am beth amser wedyn. Fodd bynnag, yn ddiweddar, mae nifer o etholwyr wedi dweud wrth fy swyddfa am oedi sylweddol i gael cadeiriau newydd neu i atgyweirio’u cadeiriau, yn enwedig yng ngogledd Cymru. A fyddai’n briodol i’r Gweinidog roi diweddariad inni ar weithredu’r argymhellion yn yr adroddiad?

I also ask for a statement from the Government on housing, and the role of the independent sector in providing housing, particularly the role of the Almshouse Association and its ability to be involved in policy development in Wales. I recently met representatives of the Almshouse Association, who indicated that they are not engaged in any way, shape or form in discussions with the Welsh Government, but they would like to be in the future. Could that be confirmed in a statement of some sort?

Gofynnaf hefyd am ddatganiad gan y Llywodraeth ar dai, a rôl y sector annibynnol yn darparu tai, yn enwedig rôl y Gymdeithas Elusendai a’i gallu i fod yn rhan o ddatblygiad polisi yng Nghymru. Yn ddiweddar cyfarfûm â chynrychiolwyr y Gymdeithas Elusendai, a wnaeth ddangos nad ydynt, mewn unrhyw ffordd, mewn trafodaethau gyda Llywodraeth Cymru, ond byddent yn hoffi gwneud hynny yn y dyfodol. A allai hynny gael ei gadarnhau mewn datganiad o ryw fath?

Jane Hutt: I am sure that the Minister will want to provide an update on the delivery of wheelchair services, which is an area where there has been investment and development. However, if there are particular instances of delays, you need to raise those points with the local health boards.

Jane Hutt: Yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd y Gweinidog am roi diweddariad ar gyflenwi gwasanaethau cadeiriau olwyn, sydd yn faes lle y bu buddsoddi a datblygu. Fodd bynnag, os oes enghreifftiau penodol o oedi, mae angen i chi godi’r pwyntiau hynny gyda’r byrddau iechyd lleol.

Your second point is very welcome because the Minister for Housing, Regeneration and Heritage is putting affordable housing and the supply of affordable housing at the forefront of his agenda. I am sure that he would be willing to listen to your point regarding the Almshouse Association.

Mae croeso mawr i’ch ail bwynt oherwydd mae’r Gweinidog Tai, Adfywio a Threftadaeth yn rhoi tai fforddiadwy a’r cyflenwad o dai fforddiadwy ar frig ei agenda. Yr wyf yn siŵr y byddai’n barod i wrando ar eich pwynt ynglŷn â’r Gymdeithas Elusendai.

Peter Black: We all received a letter from the Minister for Business, Enterprise, Technology and Science last night regarding her announcement on enterprise zones, but we have not had an opportunity to scrutinise that very important decision in the Chamber. It is clear from the questions that were asked of the First Minister that there are many unanswered questions about that particular announcement and the way in which it will be implemented. Will you bring forward an oral statement in the Chamber on that announcement or, alternatively, table a debate so that we can scrutinise the Minister on her intentions?

Peter Black: Fe gawsom i gyd lythyr gan y Gweinidog Busnes, Menter, Technoleg a Gwyddoniaeth neithiwr ynghylch ei chyhoeddiad ar barthau menter, ond ni chawsom gyfle i graffu ar y penderfyniad pwysig iawn hwnnw yn y Siambr. Mae’n amlwg o’r cwestiynau a ofynnwyd i’r Prif Weinidog bod llawer o gwestiynau heb eu hateb ynghylch y cyhoeddiad penodol hwnnw a’r ffordd y caiff ei weithredu. A wnewch chi gyflwyno datganiad llafar yn y Siambr ar y cyhoeddiad hwnnw neu, fel arall, gyflwyno dadl fel y gallwn graffu ar y Gweinidog ar ei bwriadau?

Jane Hutt: Peter Black’s representation during the business statement follows on from the exchange during questions to the First Minister. Members will be aware that the announcement on enterprise zones was widely welcomed across Wales, and the Minister wrote to all AMs before she spoke to business leaders last night. As the First Minister said, it is clear that further clarification from the UK Government is required regarding the detail, and I refer you to the letter in which the Minister says that there is a great deal of detailed work to be done, including clarification from the UK Government on the detailed operation of capital allowances. At that point, when that detail is complete, the Minister will be able to confirm arrangements with regard to the enterprise zones.

Jane Hutt: Mae sylwadau Peter Black yn ystod y datganiad busnes yn dilyn y drafodaeth a fu yn ystod cwestiynau i’r Prif Weinidog. Bydd Aelodau yn ymwybodol y bu croeso mawr i’r cyhoeddiad ar barthau menter ledled Cymru, ac fe ysgrifennodd y Gweinidog at bob Aelod Cynulliad cyn iddi siarad ag arweinwyr busnes neithiwr. Fel y dywedodd y Prif Weinidog, mae’n amlwg bod angen eglurhad pellach gan Lywodraeth y DU ynglŷn â’r manylion, ac fe’ch cyfeiriaf at y llythyr lle dywed y Gweinidog bod llawer iawn o waith manwl i’w wneud, gan gynnwys eglurhad gan Lywodraeth y DU ar weithrediad manwl lwfansau cyfalaf. Ar y pwynt hwnnw, pan gwblheir y manylion hynny, bydd y Gweinidog yn gallu cadarnhau trefniadau o ran y parthau menter.

Andrew R.T. Davies: Minister, may we have a statement from the Minister responsible for bad weather provision? We are now entering the winter months—[Interruption.] I hear the Minister for education laughing mockingly, but it is interesting to note that the Scottish Government has taken such a serious view of this that it has identified a day in October for testing all public services for their preparedness for adverse conditions. Many Members who travel through Cardiff will recall, as I do, that the city ground to a halt for 10 days in December last year because of the inability of the local authority to salt the roads. Therefore, I seek a statement from the Minister who would be the co-ordinating Minister for public services on ensuring that there is adequate provision within those services should the winter months bring adverse weather. Although there is much mocking from the Government bench, it will be interesting, if that weather comes, if one Minister is on their feet saying, ‘We could not have foreseen this’ or that people have battled on. It is not good enough. We have had years to prepare and we need to know that the Government and other public services have adequate provision in place should there be adverse weather this winter.

Andrew R.T. Davies: Weinidog, a gawn ni ddatganiad gan y Gweinidog sy’n gyfrifol am ddarpariaeth pan fydd tywydd gwael? Rydym bellach yn dechrau misoedd y gaeaf—[Torri ar draws.] Clywaf y Gweinidog dros addysg yn chwerthin yn watwarus, ond mae’n ddiddorol nodi bod Llywodraeth yr Alban wedi ystyried hwn fel mater difrifol fel ei bod wedi neilltuo dydd ym mis Hydref i brofi’r holl wasanaethau cyhoeddus ar gyfer eu parodrwydd pan fydd amodau tywydd anffafriol. Fe fydd sawl Aelod sy’n teithio trwy Gaerdydd yn cofio, fel yr wyf i, fod gweithgarwch yn y ddinas wedi dod i ben am 10 diwrnod ym mis Rhagfyr y llynedd oherwydd anallu’r awdurdod lleol i roi halen ar y ffyrdd. Felly, gofynnaf am ddatganiad gan y Gweinidog, a fyddai’r Gweinidog sy’n cyd-drefnu gwasanaethau cyhoeddus, ar sicrhau bod darpariaeth ddigonol o fewn y gwasanaethau hynny os daw misoedd y gaeaf â thywydd garw. Er bod llawer o watwar o fainc y Llywodraeth, fe fydd yn ddiddorol, os daw’r tywydd hwnnw, os bydd un Gweinidog ar eu traed yn dweud, ‘Ni allem fod wedi rhagweld hyn’ neu fod pobl wedi brwydro ymlaen. Nid yw’n ddigon da. Cawsom flynyddoedd i baratoi ac mae’n rhaid inni wybod bod gan y Llywodraeth a gwasanaethau cyhoeddus eraill ddarpariaeth ddigonol yn ei le os bydd tywydd garw’r gaeaf hwn.

Jane Hutt: I think that we can forgive the leader of the opposition for laying bad weather at our feet in terms of ministerial responsibility, but the serious point that you make is that, of course, we as a Government have a responsibility to work with our partners, particularly local government, to ensure that plans are in place. I can assure the Chamber that Ministers, led by the Minister for Local Government and Communities, working in collaboration across the Cabinet, have plans in place as we work towards what we hope will not be such bad weather conditions as we experienced last year.

Jane Hutt: Credaf y gallwn faddau i arweinydd yr wrthblaid am osod tywydd gwael ar ein traed o ran cyfrifoldeb gweinidogol, ond y pwynt difrifol yr ydych yn ei wneud, wrth gwrs, yw fod gennym ni fel Llywodraeth gyfrifoldeb i weithio gyda’n partneriaid llywodraeth leol yn arbennig, i sicrhau bod cynlluniau ar waith. Fe allaf sicrhau’r Siambr fod gan Weinidogion, dan arweiniad y Gweinidog Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau, yn gweithio ar y cyd ar draws y Cabinet, gynlluniau ar waith wrth i ni weithio tuag at yr hyn y gobeithiwn na fydd cynddrwg â’r tywydd a gawsom y llynedd.

Paul Davies: Weinidog, byddwch yn ymwybodol bod un o’m hetholwyr wedi dod o hyd i amlen mewn clawdd y tu allan i’w thŷ yn ystod yr haf a oedd yn cynnwys gwybodaeth gyfyngedig Llywodraeth Cymru. Yr wyf yn deall yr oedd yr amlen ar y ffordd i swyddfeydd Llywodraeth Cymru yn Llandudno. Fe’i hanfonwyd o’r swyddfeydd ym Merthyr Tudful. Byddai dweud bod y darganfyddiad hwn yn syndod yn dipyn o danddatganiad. Mae sut neu pham daeth yr amlen i orwedd mewn clawdd yn sir Benfro yn ddirgelwch i bawb wrth gwrs. Ar y pryd, derbyniais lythyr gan y Prif Weinidog yn cydnabod cynnwys yr amlen ac yn cadarnhau byddai ymchwiliad i’r mater. Fodd bynnag, mae hwn yn fater difrifol ac yr wyf yn gofyn i chi, Weinidog, i ofyn i’r Prif Weinidog wneud datganiad ar faterion diogelwch y Llywodraeth yn gyffredinol a’r modd y mae gwybodaeth yn cael ei hanfon o un o swyddfeydd y Llywodraeth i un arall. Yr wyf yn siŵr eich bod yn cytuno y dylid osgoi sefyllfa debyg yn y dyfodol.

Paul Davies: Minister, you will be aware that one of my constituents found an envelope in a hedge outside her house during the summer containing restricted information from the Welsh Government. I understand that the package was on its way to the Welsh Government office in Llandudno. It had been sent from the offices in Merthyr Tydfil. To say that this discovery was a surprise is quite an understatement. How or why that package came to be lying in a hedge in Pembrokeshire is a mystery to us all of course. At the time, I received a letter from the First Minister acknowledging the contents of the package and confirming that there would be an investigation into the issue. However, this is a serious matter and I ask you, Minister, to ask the First Minister to make a statement on Government security issues generally and the means by which information is conveyed from one Government office to another. I am sure that you agree that a situation such as this should be avoided in future.

Jane Hutt: I am very glad that the question from Paul Davies has given me the opportunity to update Members on this serious situation and to assure Members that the Welsh Government takes the loss of any information seriously. An investigation commenced immediately. It has not yet been concluded. In fact, the Department for Transport appointed an independent security colleague from the Ministry of Justice, which I think is appropriate, in order to review Government mail processes. The Department for Transport is, of course, responsible for Government mail services. The Welsh Government departmental security officer has instructed post rooms to carry out additional interim security measures until the investigation, reviews and lessons-learned exercises have been completed. We will then return to the Chamber with that response.

Jane Hutt: Yr wyf yn falch iawn bod cwestiwn Paul Davies wedi rhoi’r cyfle imi i ddiweddaru Aelodau ar y sefyllfa ddifrifol hon ac i sicrhau Aelodau bod Llywodraeth Cymru’n cymryd colli unrhyw wybodaeth o ddifrif. Cychwynnodd ymchwiliad ar unwaith. Nid yw eto wedi’i gwblhau. Mewn gwirionedd, fe wnaeth yr Adran Drafnidiaeth benodi cydweithiwr diogelwch annibynnol o’r Weinyddiaeth Gyfiawnder, sy’n briodol, rwy’n credu, er mwyn adolygu prosesau post y Llywodraeth. Yr adran drafnidiaeth, wrth gwrs, sy’n gyfrifol am wasanaethau post y Llywodraeth. Mae swyddog diogelwch adrannol Llywodraeth Cymru wedi cyfarwyddo stafelloedd post i gynnal mesurau diogelwch ychwanegol dros dro hyd nes bydd yr ymchwiliad, yr adolygiadau a’r ymarferion dysgu gwersi wedi’u cwblhau. Byddwn wedyn yn dychwelyd i’r Siambr â’r ymateb.

Nick Ramsay: I wish to reiterate the request that Peter Black made earlier to the Leader of the House for a statement from the Minister regarding the exact nature of and details regarding enterprise zones in Wales. While there is broad welcome for this change of heart by the Welsh Government—we all recognise the need for enterprise zones—many concerns have been expressed today about the nature of the zones and how the economic renewal programme sectors will feed in to each individual zone. It would be beneficial to all of us in the Chamber if we had the opportunity to scrutinise this important Welsh Government policy.

Nick Ramsay: Hoffwn ailadrodd y cais a wnaeth Peter Black yn gynharach i Arweinydd y Tŷ am ddatganiad gan y Gweinidog ynghylch union natur a manylion parthau menter yng Nghymru. Er bod croeso cyffredinol ar gyfer y newid meddwl hwn gan Lywodraeth Cymru—yr ydym i gyd yn cydnabod bod angen parthau menter—mynegwyd llawer o bryderon heddiw ynglŷn â natur y parthau a sut bydd sectorau’r rhaglen adnewyddu economaidd yn bwydo i mewn i bob parth unigol. Byddai’n fuddiol i bawb ohonom yn y Siambr pe baem yn cael y cyfle i graffu ar y polisi pwysig hwn gan Lywodraeth Cymru.

Jane Hutt: In terms of following up the points that have already been made on this issue, the letter from the Minister for Business, Enterprise, Technology and Science is clear and provides the clarification that is needed, particularly about the opportunities that we have in relation to the use of capital allowances. In Wales, the Minister is taking a clear and different route in many ways in terms of the opportunities around enterprise zones for economic potential. This will result in the Minister providing further clarification in due course.

Jane Hutt: O ran dilyn y pwyntiau sydd eisoes wedi’u gwneud ar y mater hwn, mae’r llythyr gan y Gweinidog Busnes, Menter, Technoleg a Gwyddoniaeth yn glir ac yn rhoi’r eglurhad sydd ei angen, yn enwedig ynghylch y cyfleoedd sydd gennym o ran y defnydd o lwfansau cyfalaf. Yng Nghymru, mae’r Gweinidog yn dilyn trywydd clir a gwahanol mewn llawer o ffyrdd o ran y cyfleoedd o amgylch parthau menter ar gyfer potensial economaidd. Bydd hyn yn arwain at y Gweinidog yn rhoi rhagor o eglurhad maes o law.

Y Dirprwy Weinidog Plant a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (Gwenda Thomas): Hoffwn wneud datganiad ar ran Llywodraeth Cymru yn ymwneud â diogelu ac arweinyddiaeth gorfforaethol yn sir Benfro. Ym mis Awst, gwneuthum ddatganiad yn dilyn cyhoeddiad adroddiad ar y cyd gan Estyn ac Arolygiaeth Gofal a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol Cymru. Yr oedd yr adroddiad yn ymwneud â thrin a rheoli honiadau o gam-drin proffesiynol, a’r trefniadau ar gyfer diogelu ac amddiffyn plant mewn gwasanaethau addysg yng Nghyngor Sir Penfro. Dywedais bryd hynny y byddwn yn gwneud datganiad llafar cyn gynted â phosibl ar ôl i Gynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru ddychwelyd o doriad yr haf. Gwn y byddwch yn croesawu’r cyfle hwn i ystyried y materion hyn.

The Deputy Minister for Children and Social Services (Gwenda Thomas):I wish to make a statement on behalf of the Welsh Government regarding child protection and corporate leadership in Pembrokeshire. In August, I made a statement following the publication of a joint report by Estyn and the Care and Social Services Inspectorate Wales. The report dealt with the handling and the management of allegations of professional abuse and the arrangements for safeguarding and protecting children in education services in Pembrokeshire County Council. I said at the time that I would make an oral statement as soon as possible when the National Assembly for Wales returned after the summer recess. I know that you will welcome this opportunity to consider these issues.

The joint inspectorate report was published on 11 August. It was a significantly concerning report that concluded that there were longstanding and systemic shortcomings at the very core of the council. I stated then that I would make an oral statement as soon as possible when the National Assembly for Wales returned. The immediate focus of concern has been on education, youth and community services, but the joint report uncovered the breadth of the failures across the council, including corporate leadership of the authority. There has been a lack of political oversight and weakness in the way in which elected members discharge their responsibilities. Equally, council officers up to the most senior levels have failed to engage or support members properly. These things have led to the failings identified in the joint report, which were not addressed for years. On the same day, Estyn published a report on the quality of local education services for children and young people in Pembrokeshire. Those services were judged as unsatisfactory with unsatisfactory prospects for improvement. Policies and systems for safeguarding children and young people were not fit for purpose.

Cyhoeddwyd adroddiad yr arolygiaeth ar y cyd ar 11 Awst. Yr oedd yr adroddiad yn peri pryder sylweddol a daeth i’r casgliad bod diffygion hirsefydlog a systemig wrth graidd y cyngor. Dywedais ar y pryd y byddwn yn gwneud datganiad llafar cyn gynted â phosibl pan fyddai Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru yn dychwelyd. Canolbwyntiwyd yn gyntaf ar wasanaethau addysg, ieuenctid a chymunedol, ond datgelodd yr adroddiad ar y cyd ehangder y methiannau ar draws y cyngor, gan gynnwys arweinyddiaeth gorfforaethol yr awdurdod. Bu diffyg goruchwylio gwleidyddol a gwendid yn y ffordd y mae aelodau etholedig yn cyflawni eu cyfrifoldebau. Yn yr un modd, mae swyddogion y cyngor hyd at y lefelau uchaf wedi methu ag ymgysylltu neu gefnogi aelodau’n briodol. Mae’r pethau hyn wedi arwain at y diffygion a nodwyd yn yr adroddiad ar y cyd, na chafodd eu hystyried am flynyddoedd. Ar yr un diwrnod, cyhoeddodd Estyn adroddiad ar ansawdd gwasanaethau addysg lleol ar gyfer plant a phobl ifanc yn sir Benfro. Barnwyd bod y gwasanaethau hynny’n anfoddhaol gyda rhagolygon anfoddhaol ar gyfer gwella. Nid oedd polisïau a systemau ar gyfer diogelu plant a phobl ifanc yn addas i’w ddiben.

I want to make it absolutely clear. The failures identified in Pembrokeshire County Council are failures of the council itself. There can be no excuses for corporate and democratic leaders who do not pay proper attention to the processes and systems that protect and safeguard children and young people, resulting in children being harmed. It is their responsibility to create a culture that takes these matters to its heart. It is their responsibility to listen to the voices of children and young people, to operate in an open and transparent way and to welcome challenge and scrutiny.

Yr wyf am ei gwneud yn gwbl glir. Mae’r methiannau a ganfuwyd yng Nghyngor Sir Penfro yn fethiannau’r cyngor ei hun. Ni all fod unrhyw esgusion dros arweinwyr corfforaethol a democrataidd sydd ddim yn talu sylw priodol i’r prosesau a systemau sy’n amddiffyn a diogelu plant a phobl ifanc, sy’n arwain at blant yn cael eu niweidio. Eu cyfrifoldeb nhw yw creu diwylliant sy’n cymryd y materion hyn i’w chalon. Eu cyfrifoldeb nhw yw gwrando ar leisiau plant a phobl ifanc, gweithredu mewn ffordd agored a thryloyw a chroesawu herio a chraffu.

I said in August that the Welsh Government would not stand by and allow this failure to continue, and we have not. On behalf of the Welsh Government, I spoke immediately to the leader of the council. We required the council to put an action plan in place by 9 September.

Dywedais ym mis Awst na fyddai Llywodraeth Cymru’n llaesu dwylo a chaniatáu’r methiant hwn i barhau, ac nid ydym wedi gwneud hynny. Ar ran Llywodraeth Cymru, siaredais yn syth ag arweinydd y cyngor. Fe’i gwnaethom yn ofynnol i’r cyngor roi cynllun gweithredu ar waith erbyn 9 Medi.

3.30 p.m.

We put in place a team to challenge and support the council and to advise Welsh Ministers on the robustness of its actions and action plan. I want to thank Phil Robson, David Hopkins and Rose Seabourne for their work with Pembrokeshire council. In order to ensure the immediate safety of children, I directed the council to comply with its duties to properly protect children. Welsh Ministers were not satisfied with Pembrokeshire’s initial response to the reports. On 19 August, the Minister for Education and Skills and I had a private telephone conversation with the leader of Pembrokeshire council to make this clear. We explained that we would be writing to him and copying our letter to all Assembly Members, which we did on 24 August. We received the council’s action plan on 9 September. We have had assurance that all the requirements of our direction have been complied with and that staff cannot now come into contact with children on behalf of Pembrokeshire County Council without adequate checks being carried out.

Sefydlasom dîm i herio a chefnogi’r cyngor ac i gynghori Gweinidogion Cymru ar gadernid ei weithredoedd a’i gynllun gweithredu. Hoffwn ddiolch i Phil Robson, David Hopkins a Rose Seabourne am eu gwaith gyda chyngor sir Benfro. Er mwyn sicrhau diogelwch uniongyrchol y plant, cyfarwyddais y cyngor i gydymffurfio â’i ddyletswyddau i amddiffyn plant yn iawn. Nid yw Gweinidogion Cymru yn fodlon gydag ymateb cychwynnol sir Benfro i’r adroddiadau. Ar 19 Awst, cafodd y Gweinidog Addysg a Sgiliau a minnau sgwrs ffôn preifat gydag arweinydd cyngor sir Benfro i wneud hyn yn glir. Esboniasom y byddem yn ysgrifennu ato a chopïo ein llythyr at bob Aelod Cynulliad, a gwnaethom hynny ar 24 Awst. Cawsom gynllun gweithredu y cyngor ar 9 Medi. Yr ydym wedi cael sicrwydd bod holl ofynion ein cyfeiriad wedi’u cydymffurfio â nhw, ac ni all staff bellach ddod i gysylltiad â phlant ar ran Cyngor Sir Penfro heb bod gwiriadau digonol yn cael eu gwneud.

The council’s plan in response to the wider education issues identified by Estyn must be put in place within two months. We also looked to the longer term and to the wider issues. We know that these failures will not be fixed quickly. We asked Estyn and CSSIW to follow up their joint investigation at an appropriate time and we were reassured that CSSIW and Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary were looking at the quality of joint work to safeguard and protect children and young people. I have said that that work must include Estyn and Healthcare Inspectorate Wales as well as the National Probation Service, and take account of the views of the Wales Audit Office. That work has started and will be available shortly. The Auditor General for Wales has himself recognised the seriousness of the issues identified in the joint report in relation to corporate governance arrangements. Following consultation with Welsh Ministers, and a meeting with the Minister for Local Government and Communities, he has decided to undertake a special inspection in Pembrokeshire County Council in November. We know also that the inspectorate has asked Pembrokeshire County Council and Dyfed-Powys Police to review all 25 cases of alleged professional abuse in education services that were made between 2007 and 2011, plus one additional case that has subsequently been reported.

Mae’n rhaid i’r cyngor sefydlu ei gynllun o fewn dau fis mewn ymateb i’r materion addysg ehangach a nodwyd gan Estyn. Rydym hefyd yn edrych at y tymor hwy ac ar faterion ehangach. Rydym yn gwybod na fydd y methiannau hyn yn cael eu datrys yn gyflym. Gofynasom i Estyn ac AGGCC i ddilyn lan ar eu cyd-ymchwiliad ar adeg briodol, ac roedd yn galonogol bod AGGCC ac Arolygiaeth Cwnstabliaeth Ei Mawrhydi yn edrych ar ansawdd y gwaith ar y cyd i ddiogelu ac amddiffyn plant a phobl ifanc. Yr wyf wedi dweud bod yn rhaid i’r gwaith hwnnw gynnwys Estyn ac Arolygiaeth Gofal Iechyd Cymru yn ogystal â’r Gwasanaeth Prawf Cenedlaethol, ac ystyried barn Swyddfa Archwilio Cymru. Mae’r gwaith hwnnw wedi dechrau a bydd ar gael cyn bo hir. Mae Archwilydd Cyffredinol Cymru ei hun wedi cydnabod difrifoldeb y materion a nodwyd yn yr adroddiad ar y cyd mewn perthynas â threfniadau llywodraethu corfforaethol. Ar ôl ymgynghori â Gweinidogion Cymru, ac ar ôl cyfarfod gyda’r Gweinidog Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau, mae wedi penderfynu cynnal arolygiad arbennig yng Nghyngor Sir Penfro ym mis Tachwedd. Rydym yn gwybod hefyd bod yr arolygiaeth wedi gofyn i Gyngor Sir Penfro a Heddlu Dyfed-Powys i adolygu pob un o’r 25 o achosion o gam-drin proffesiynol honedig mewn gwasanaethau addysg a wnaed rhwng 2007 a ​​2011, ynghyd ag un achos ychwanegol sydd wedi cael ei adrodd ar ôl hynny.

We have written to all local authority leaders reminding them of their statutory duty to ensure that the proper employment practices and response to allegations of abuse are in place. We have now had advice from our board. It is clear that there is still a considerable way to go before we can be confident that Pembrokeshire County Council has created the culture that is needed to properly safeguard and protect children. We will have information as a result of the joint inspection, from the Wales Audit Office inspection and from the outcome of the review of the 26 cases over the coming months. CSSIW remains engaged in addressing a range of issues with the authority and continues to receive information from a variety of sources. However, we have been persuaded that there is progress and that the council itself is prepared now to reach into its culture and processes to change things. We welcome that. However, we believe—our experience has shown—that this kind of change is not achieved quickly. It will take courage and co-operative action by the whole council operating openly and transparently in a democratic framework.

Rydym wedi ysgrifennu at bob arweinydd awdurdodau lleol i’w hatgoffa o’u dyletswydd statudol i sicrhau bod yr arferion cyflogaeth cywir ac ymateb i honiadau o gam-drin yn eu lle. Rydym bellach wedi cael cyngor gan ein bwrdd. Mae’n amlwg bod yna dal i fod yn ffordd sylweddol i fynd cyn y gallwn fod yn hyderus bod Cyngor Sir Penfro wedi creu’r diwylliant sydd ei angen i ddiogelu ac amddiffyn plant yn iawn. Bydd gennym wybodaeth o ganlyniad i’r arolygiad ar y cyd, o arolygiad Swyddfa Archwilio Cymru ac o ganlyniad i’r adolygiad o’r 26 o achosion dros y misoedd nesaf. Mae AGGCC wrthi’n mynd i’r afael ag ystod o faterion gyda’r awdurdod ac mae’n parhau i dderbyn gwybodaeth o amrywiaeth o ffynonellau.  Fodd bynnag, rydym wedi cael ein perswadio bod yna gynnydd a bod y cyngor ei hun yn barod yn awr i fynd i mewn i’w ddiwylliant a’i brosesau er mwyn newid pethau. Rydym yn croesawu hynny. Fodd bynnag, credwn—fel mae ein profiad wedi dangos—nad yw’r math hwn o newid yn cael ei gyflawni yn gyflym. Bydd yn cymryd dewrder a chamau cydweithredol gan y cyngor cyfan yn gweithredu’n agored a thryloyw mewn fframwaith ddemocrataidd.

I will say again: the responsibility for these failings rests solely with the council. The responsibility for putting it right also rests with the council, but we do not believe that it can achieve this on its own. We believe that external challenge and support can best be provided through a ministerial board with an independent chair with a legal background and other members with the necessary expertise to challenge the council in the core areas for improvement. I will announce the membership shortly, and I have spoken to the leader of the council this morning. I know that the council will welcome this as a positive response to its progress to date, but I will end by saying that we will be swift to take further action if we do not see evidence of progress. 

Dywedaf eto: mae’r cyfrifoldeb am y methiannau hyn yn gorwedd gyda’r cyngor yn unig. Mae’r cyfrifoldeb am roi pethau’n iawn hefyd yn gorwedd gyda’r cyngor, ond nid ydym yn credu ei fod yn gallu cyflawni hyn ar ei ben ei hun. Rydym yn credu y gall her a chefnogaeth allanol orau gael ei ddarparu drwy fwrdd gweinidogol â chadeirydd annibynnol gyda chefndir cyfreithiol ac aelodau eraill sydd â’r arbenigedd angenrheidiol i herio’r cyngor yn y meysydd craidd i’w gwella. Byddaf yn cyhoeddi’r aelodaeth yn fuan, ac yr wyf wedi siarad ag arweinydd y cyngor y bore yma. Gwn y bydd y cyngor yn croesawu hyn fel ymateb cadarnhaol i’w gynnydd hyd yma, ond dof i ben drwy ddweud y byddwn yn prysuro i gymryd camau pellach os nad ydym yn gweld tystiolaeth o gynnydd.

Darren Millar: I thank the Deputy Minister for her statement this afternoon, and for the briefing that you gave to me and other Members this morning.

Darren Millar: Diolch i’r Dirprwy Weinidog am ei datganiad y prynhawn yma, ac am y briffio a roddodd i mi ac Aelodau eraill y bore yma.

I think that all Assembly Members were shocked and appalled by the findings of the joint inspectorate report when it was published on 11 August, and you are absolutely right to say that there can be no excuse for the serious failings identified in what can only be described as Pembrokeshire County Council’s casual approach to safeguarding children. There was a failure to adhere to simple and straightforward policies, such as requiring staff to do simple things such as check people’s criminal records with the Criminal Records Bureau and seek references for new members of staff. There can be no excuse for not doing straightforward things like that. There can also be no excuse for the failings of corporate governance at the council, and I know that you have been in discussions with Carl Sargeant and Leighton Andrews, as Ministers responsible for their portfolio areas, about ensuring that there is cultural change at the local authority.

Credaf fod yr Aelodau Cynulliad i gyd yn synnu ac wedi eu harswydo gan ganfyddiadau adroddiad yr arolygiaeth ar y cyd pan gafodd ei gyhoeddi ar 11 Awst, ac yr ydych yn llygad eich lle i ddweud nad oes unrhyw esgus am y methiannau difrifol a nodwyd a’r hyn y gellir ond ei ddisgrifio fel dull didaro Cyngor Sir Penfro i ddiogelu plant. Roedd methiant i gadw at bolisïau syml ac uniongyrchol, fel gofyn i’r staff wneud pethau syml fel gwirio cofnodion troseddol pobl gyda’r Swyddfa Cofnodion Troseddol a gofyn am dystlythyrau ar gyfer aelodau newydd o staff. Nid oes unrhyw esgus dros beidio â gwneud pethau syml fel yna. Ni all fod esgus am y methiannau llywodraethu corfforaethol yn y cyngor, a gwn eich bod wedi bod mewn trafodaethau gyda Carl Sargeant a Leighton Andrews, fel Gweinidogion sy’n gyfrifol am eu meysydd portffolio, ynghylch sicrhau bod newid diwylliant yn yr awdurdod lleol.

We all hope that the 26 cases currently being reviewed by Dyfed-Powys Police will come to nought, and that they will not be found to have the significant problems that have contributed to those cases being reported.

Rydym i gyd yn gobeithio y bydd y 26 o achosion sy’n cael eu hadolygu ar hyn o bryd gan Heddlu Dyfed-Powys yn mynd i’r gwellt, ac na chanfyddir y problemau sylweddol sydd wedi cyfrannu at yr achosion hynny yn cael eu hadrodd.

I am pleased that the Welsh Government took decisive action as a result of the report published on 11 August, and that you established a ministerial advisory board so quickly. I also welcome your confirmation, Deputy Minister, that you are in the process of seeking an independent chair with a legal background to look after that board and to take its work forward. I also welcome the attitude of co-operation with the Government by Pembrokeshire County Council to ensure that there is full cultural change in that local authority. I think that it is right that you have not used the powers available to you as yet to intervene in order to appoint commissioners for that council, as it is something that you should reserve for the future, if and when it may be necessary. However, the level of co-operation from the council and the acknowledgement that the problems are there, have been there for some time and need to be resolved, means that we as Assembly Members can be confident in the knowledge that you are working as a Welsh Government with the council to put those wrongs right.

Rwy’n falch bod Llywodraeth Cymru yn cymryd camau pendant yn sgil yr adroddiad a gyhoeddwyd ar 11 Awst, a’ch bod wedi sefydlu bwrdd cynghori’r Gweinidog mor gyflym. Yr wyf hefyd yn croesawu eich cadarnhad, Ddirprwy Weinidog, eich bod yn y broses o geisio cadeirydd annibynnol gyda chefndir cyfreithiol i ofalu am y bwrdd ac i gymryd ei waith yn ei flaen. Rwyf hefyd yn croesawu’r agwedd o gydweithredu â’r Llywodraeth gan Gyngor Sir Penfro er mwyn sicrhau bod yna newid diwylliant llawn yn yr awdurdod lleol hwnnw. Yr wyf yn meddwl ei bod yn gywir nad ydych wedi defnyddio’r pwerau sydd ar gael i chi eto i ymyrryd er mwyn penodi comisiynwyr ar gyfer y cyngor hwnnw, gan ei fod yn rhywbeth y dylech ei neilltuo ar gyfer y dyfodol, os oes angen ar y pryd. Fodd bynnag, mae lefel y cydweithrediad gan y cyngor a’r gydnabyddiaeth bod problemau yno, wedi bod yno ers peth amser, ac mae angen eu datrys, yn golygu y gallwn ni fel Aelodau’r Cynulliad fod yn hyderus o wybod eich bod yn gweithio fel Llywodraeth Cymru gyda’r cyngor i gywiro’r camweddau hynny.

However, I have three questions to ask. In the third Assembly, the Health, Wellbeing and Local Government Committee produced a report that made a number of recommendations on local safeguarding children’s boards, many of which you, as Deputy Minister, accepted upon the report’s production. Will you make a further statement in the Chamber on the implementation of those recommendations, because, let us face it, if the local safeguarding children’s board had been doing its work properly, we would not be in this situation where these failings have been identified so long after they occurred.

Fodd bynnag, mae gennyf dri chwestiwn i’w gofyn. Yn y trydydd Cynulliad, cynhyrchodd y Pwyllgor Iechyd, Lles a Llywodraeth Leol adroddiad oedd yn gwneud nifer o argymhellion ar fyrddau lleol diogelu plant, a derbyniasoch lawer ohonynt, fel Dirprwy Weinidog, pan gyhoeddwyd yr adroddiad. A wnewch chi ddatganiad pellach yn y Siambr ar weithredu’r argymhellion hynny oherwydd, gadewch inni wynebu hyn, pe byddai’r bwrdd lleol diogelu plant wedi bod yn gwneud ei gwaith yn iawn, ni fyddem yn y sefyllfa hon lle mae’r diffygion hyn wedi cael eu nodi mor hir ar ôl iddynt ddigwydd.

Have you identified any legislative shortcomings in your powers or the powers of any other Minister to intervene in order to establish the safety of children in Pembrokeshire, as a result of the failings that were reported by the joint inspectorates? If so, what are you doing to tackle those shortcomings should they occur in the future?

A ydych chi wedi nodi unrhyw ddiffygion deddfwriaethol yn eich pwerau neu bwerau unrhyw Weinidog arall i ymyrryd er mwyn sefydlu diogelwch plant yn sir Benfro, yn sgil y methiannau sydd yn cael eu hadrodd gan y cyd-arolygiaethau? Os felly, beth ydych yn ei wneud i fynd i’r afael â’r diffygion hynny pe baent yn digwydd yn y dyfodol?

Thirdly, you said that you have received assurances from Pembrokeshire County Council that the immediate failings in safeguarding have now been resolved, and I am pleased to hear that. However, what confidence do you have that the failings that were identified in this situation are not being repeated in other local authorities in Wales? If you have identified failings in other local authorities, I ask you to produce information that indicates to us what you are doing to resolve them. This is now a public confidence issue, and parents need to be assured that the Government is taking this situation seriously, not just in Pembrokeshire, but throughout Wales.

Yn drydydd, dywedasoch eich bod wedi derbyn sicrwydd gan Gyngor Sir Penfro fod y methiannau uniongyrchol mewn diogelu wedi cael eu datrys erbyn hyn, ac yr wyf yn falch o glywed hynny. Fodd bynnag, pa hyder sydd gennych nad yw’r methiannau a nodwyd yn y sefyllfa hon yn cael eu hailadrodd mewn awdurdodau lleol eraill yng Nghymru? Os ydych wedi nodi methiannau mewn awdurdodau lleol eraill, yr wyf yn gofyn i chi gynhyrchu gwybodaeth sy’n dangos inni beth ydych yn ei wneud i’w datrys. Mae hwn bellach yn fater hyder y cyhoedd, ac mae rhieni eisiau bod yn sicr bod y Llywodraeth yn cymryd y sefyllfa hon o ddifrif, nid yn unig yn sir Benfro, ond ledled Cymru.

Gwenda Thomas: Thank you for those comments and for the opportunity to brief you earlier. I also thank you that those comments were positive. I assure you that we have worked co-operatively as Ministers and that we have now come across a willingness to co-operate from Pembrokeshire. I think that there has been a change of attitude, and we welcome that.

Gwenda Thomas: Diolch am y sylwadau hynny ac am y cyfle i’ch briffio yn gynharach. Hoffwn ddiolch ichi hefyd am y sylwadau cadarnhaol hynny. Yr wyf yn eich sicrhau ein bod wedi gweithio ar y cyd fel Gweinidogion a’n bod bellach wedi dod ar draws parodrwydd i gydweithredu o du sir Benfro. Credaf fod newid agwedd wedi bod, ac yr ydym yn croesawu hynny.

You referred to the former health committee and the review that it conducted into local safeguarding children boards. The work of the committee has allowed us to move forward with the review that you know that I am conducting of LSCBs. October will see the publication of a pilot review of seven LSCBs by CSSIW. I will consider making that public; it would be my intention to do so.

Cyfeiriasoch at y cyn-bwyllgor iechyd a’r adolygiad yr oedd yn ei gynnal i fyrddau lleol diogelu plant. Mae gwaith y pwyllgor wedi ein galluogi i symud ymlaen â’r adolygiad y gwyddoch fy mod yn ei gynnal o ran byrddau lleol diogelu plant. Ym mis Hydref, bydd adolygiad peilot o saith bwrdd lleol diogelu plant gan AGGCC yn cael ei gyhoeddi. Byddaf yn ystyried gwneud hynny’n gyhoeddus; fy mwriad yw gwneud hynny.

You talked about shortcomings or perhaps a gap in legislation. I am not sure that that gap is a serious gap on the safeguarding of children, but I believe that there is a gap in respect of social services legislation. A range of enforcement powers are available to Welsh Ministers in respect of social services functions through the Local Authority Social Services Act 1970. In addition, under section 28 of the Children Act 1989, local authorities are under a duty to exercise their other functions in such a way as to safeguard and promote the welfare of children. That duty under section 28 is not included as a social services function in the Local Authority Social Services Act 1970. Happily, consideration can now be given, with our new powers, to amending the law in that regard in the social services Bill that we propose to put forward as part of the legislative programme of this Assembly, and that should create consistency between social services and education.

Yr oeddech yn sôn am ddiffygion neu efallai fwlch yn y ddeddfwriaeth. Nid wyf yn siŵr bod y bwlch hwnnw yn fwlch difrifol o ran diogelu plant, ond credaf fod yna fwlch o ran deddfwriaeth gwasanaethau cymdeithasol. Mae ystod o bwerau gorfodi ar gael i Weinidogion Cymru mewn perthynas â swyddogaethau gwasanaethau cymdeithasol drwy Ddeddf Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol Awdurdodau Lleol 1970. Yn ogystal, o dan adran 28 o Ddeddf Plant 1989, mae awdurdodau lleol dan ddyletswydd i gyflawni eu swyddogaethau eraill er mwyn diogelu a hyrwyddo lles plant. Nid yw’r ddyletswydd o dan adran 28 wedi ei chynnwys fel swyddogaeth gwasanaethau cymdeithasol yn Neddf Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol Awdurdodau Lleol 1970. Yn ffodus, gall ystyriaeth bellach gael ei rhoi yn awr, gyda’n pwerau newydd, i newid y gyfraith yn hynny o beth yn y Mesur gwasanaethau cymdeithasol yr ydym yn bwriadu ei roi gerbron fel rhan o raglen ddeddfwriaethol y Cynulliad hwn, a dylai hynny greu cysondeb rhwng gwasanaethau cymdeithasol ac addysg.

Joyce Watson: The first thing that I want to do is to thank the Deputy Minister for setting up this investigation. I thank the officers of the Care and Social Services Inspectorate Wales and of Estyn for the thoroughness of the investigation and the clarity of the conclusion. I also thank the front-line workers in the social services and education departments in Pembrokeshire who saw that things were wrong, but were powerless to take radical action in the face of complacency from above. Most importantly, I thank the Deputy Minister on behalf of the children who were let down and betrayed by a system that ought to have provided them with defence and protection. Let us be clear about this, without devolution, a National Assembly for Wales, or a Deputy Minister as determined and committed as Gwenda Thomas, the murky practices that are reviewed in this report would have remained a grubby secret, known only by those who were so careless of their professional responsibility.

Joyce Watson: Y peth cyntaf yr wyf am ei wneud yw diolch i’r Dirprwy Weinidog am sefydlu’r ymchwiliad hwn. Diolch i swyddogion Arolygiaeth Gofal a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol Cymru ac Estyn am drylwyredd yr ymchwiliad ac eglurder y casgliad. Diolch hefyd i’r gweithwyr rheng flaen yn yr adrannau gwasanaethau cymdeithasol ac addysg yn sir Benfro a welodd fod pethau yn anghywir, ond yn analluog i gymryd camau radical yn wyneb hunanfoddhad oddi uwch. Yn bwysicaf oll, diolch i’r Dirprwy Weinidog ar ran y plant a gafodd eu gadael i lawr a’u bradychu gan system a ddylai fod wedi eu hamddiffyn a’u diogelu. Gadewch inni fod yn glir ynglŷn â hyn, heb ddatganoli, Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru, neu Ddirprwy Weinidog mor benderfynol ac ymroddedig â Gwenda Thomas, byddai’r arferion tywyll sy’n cael eu hadolygu yn yr adroddiad hwn wedi parhau i fod yn gyfrinach fudr, a oedd yn wybyddus yn unig i’r rhai a oedd mor ddiofal o ran eu cyfrifoldeb proffesiynol.

The report that has been produced is breathtaking. The first question that we are faced with is where to start. The individual observations are damning and the accumulation of those observations is horrifying. However, let us start by putting it into context. This was a joint investigation, carried out by the chief inspector of the Care and Social Services Inspectorate Wales and Her Majesty’s chief inspector of Estyn. That, in itself, is significant. We like to believe that, in Wales, we have an economy of scale and a culture of co-operation. Having 22 local authorities, we are told, means that education and social services operate in an atmosphere in which children are cared for in a way that is not impersonal or mechanistic.

Mae’r adroddiad sydd wedi cael ei gynhyrchu yn syfrdanol. Y cwestiwn cyntaf yr ydym yn ei wynebu yw lle i ddechrau. Mae’r sylwadau unigol yn ddamniol ac mae casgliad y sylwadau hynny yn arswydus. Fodd bynnag, gadewch inni ddechrau drwy ei roi mewn cyd-destun. Roedd hwn yn ymchwiliad ar y cyd, a gynhaliwyd gan brif arolygydd Arolygiaeth Gofal a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol Cymru a Phrif Arolygydd Ei Mawrhydi Estyn. Mae hynny ei hun yn arwyddocaol. Rydym yn awyddus i gredu, yng Nghymru, bod gennym arbedion maint a diwylliant o gydweithio. Mae cael 22 o awdurdodau lleol, dywedir wrthym, yn golygu bod addysg a gwasanaethau cymdeithasol yn gweithredu mewn awyrgylch lle mae plant yn derbyn gofal mewn ffordd nad yw’n amhersonol neu’n fecanyddol

3.45 p.m.

What this report shows is that the culture of co-operation is in fact a culture of complacency. It shows that not being impersonal and mechanistic means, in reality, not being accountable and transparent. The major tragedy is the way in which children were betrayed and let down, but there is also the tragedy of the front-line staff who recognised that things were seriously wrong in the way that children’s services operated in Pembrokeshire, but who were unable to do anything about it because of the lack of accountability and transparency.

Yr hyn a ddengys yr adroddiad hwn mewn gwirionedd yw bod y diwylliant o gydweithrediad yn ddiwylliant o hunanfoddhad. Mae’n dangos bod peidio â bod yn amhersonol a mecanistig yn gyfystyr, mewn gwirionedd, â pheidio â bod yn atebol a thryloyw. Y drasiedi fawr yw’r ffordd y cafodd plant eu bradychu a’u siomi, ond hefyd drasiedi’r staff rheng flaen a wnaeth gydnabod bod pethau o’u lle yn ddifrifol yn y ffordd yr oedd gwasanaethau i blant yn sir Benfro yn cael eu gweithredu, ond nad oeddent wedi gallu gwneud unrhyw beth amdano oherwydd y diffyg atebolrwydd a thryloywder.

The culture was such that matters of concern were swept under the carpet. They were not tackled professionally or with the children’s interests at heart. It has become a cliché, when commenting on schools in Wales, to point out that most children have only one chance in school. When one child is let down by the system that is presumably designed to protect them it is a tragedy for that child. This report focuses on the most vulnerable of our children, and so the betrayal is that much worse. These were children who had no-one else to turn to, and nowhere else to turn.

Y diwylliant oedd bod materion o bryder yn cael eu hanwybyddu. Ni ymdriniwyd â hwy’n broffesiynol na chyda diddordebau’r plant wrth wraidd. Mae wedi dod yn ystrydeb, wrth wneud sylwadau ar ysgolion yng Nghymru, i amlygu’r pwynt mai dim ond un siawns sydd gan blant yn yr ysgol. Pan fo un plentyn yn cael ei siomi gan system sydd wedi ei bwriadu i’w diogelu, mae’n drasiedi i’r plentyn hwnnw. Mae’r adroddiad hwn yn canolbwyntio ar y plant fwyaf diamddiffyn, ac felly mae’r brad yn llawer gwaeth. Roedd y plant hyn yn blant nad oedd ganddynt neb arall i droi ato, nac unman arall i droi.

Let us now look at some of the specific details in the report.

Gadewch inni edrych ar rai o fanylion penodol yr adroddiad yn awr.

The Presiding Officer: Order. Are you coming to a question soon?

Y Llywydd: Trefn. A ydych am ofyn cwestiwn cyn bo hir?

Joyce Watson: I am. What I would like, given that these children have been let down and lack a voice, is for the Deputy Minister to consider independent child advocacy as a way forward. It is clear that, when a system is not working on behalf of a child or the people concerned, independent advocacy is a possible way forward. I would also like the Deputy Minister to consider looking at the whistleblowing mechanisms for front-line staff, so that they feel that they too can have a voice.

Joyce Watson: Ydw. Yr hyn yr hoffwn i, o gofio bod y plant hyn wedi’u siomi ac nad oes ganddynt lais, yw i’r Dirprwy Weinidog ystyried eiriolaeth plant annibynnol fel ffordd ymlaen. Mae’n amlwg, pan nad yw system yn gweithio ar ran plentyn neu’r bobl dan sylw, mai eiriolaeth annibynnol yw un ffordd bosibl ymlaen. Hoffwn hefyd pe bai’r Dirprwy Weinidog yn ystyried edrych ar y mecanweithiau chwythu’r chwiban ar gyfer staff rheng flaen, fel eu bod yn teimlo bod llais ganddynt hwythau hefyd.

The Children Act 2004 and regulatory guidance are clear about child protection strategy meetings, which did not happen in this case. It also became clear during this investigation that bumbling incompetence had become something more sinister: it was not a case of not allowing the truth to come out, but of senior officers sweeping very serious concerns under the carpet. I would therefore like the Deputy Minister to consider ensuring that there is a shared catalogue of information between councillors and officers and that no council is allowed in future to have senior management board meetings without there being an agenda, let alone minutes.

Mae Deddf Plant 2004 a chanllawiau rheoleiddiol yn glir ynghylch cyfarfodydd strategaeth amddiffyn plant, na wnaeth ddigwydd yn yr achos hwn. Hefyd, daeth yn glir yn ystod yr ymchwiliad hwn fod y cawlach wedi dod yn rhywbeth mwy sinistr: nid oedd yn achos o beidio â chaniatáu’r gwir i ddod allan, ond o uwch-swyddogion yn anwybyddu pryderon difrifol iawn. Hoffwn felly i’r Dirprwy Weinidog ystyried sicrhau bod yna gatalog cyffredin o wybodaeth rhwng cynghorwyr a swyddogion ac na chaniateir i unrhyw gyngor yn y dyfodol gael cyfarfodydd ei fwrdd uwch reoli heb fod yna agenda, heb sôn am gofnodion.

Gwenda Thomas: I thank Joyce Watson for that contribution and for her positive comments. I would like to pay tribute to both inspectorates—Estyn and CSSIW—for a very thorough inspection. I assure the Chamber that anything that was picked up during this inspection was dealt with immediately. I reiterate what I have often said here: the protection and safeguarding of children is paramount. The role of independent advocacy is very important, and I believe that I will soon be able to issue an update on that. On whistleblowing, the reports tell us time and again that it is important, and that people who are prepared to do it must be listened to.

Gwenda Thomas: Diolch i Joyce Watson am y cyfraniad hwnnw ac am ei sylwadau cadarnhaol. Hoffwn dalu teyrnged i’r ddwy arolygiaeth—Estyn ac AGGCC—am arolygiad trylwyr iawn. Gallaf sicrhau’r Siambr y deliwyd ag unrhyw beth a gododd yn ystod yr arolygiad hwn ar unwaith. Ailadroddaf yr hyn rwyf yn aml wedi ddweud yma: mae amddiffyn a diogelu plant yn hollbwysig. Mae rôl eiriolaeth annibynnol yn bwysig iawn, a chredaf y gallaf gyhoeddi diweddariad ar hynny yn fuan. Ar chwythu’r chwiban, dywed yr adroddiadau wrthym dro ar ôl tro ei fod yn bwysig, a bod rhaid gwrando ar y bobl sy’n barod i wneud hynny.

The other points that you make relate to corporate governance, I believe, and the Wales Audit Office inspection will, I am sure, make clear how effective that is in Pembrokeshire.

Mae’r pwyntiau eraill rydych yn ei wneud yn ymwneud â llywodraethu corfforaethol, rwy’n credu, a bydd arolygiad Swyddfa Archwilio Cymru, rwy’n siŵr, yn ei gwneud yn glir pa mor effeithiol yw hynny yn sir Benfro.

Lindsay Whittle: Thank you, Deputy Minister, for the briefing this morning. It was extremely helpful. As someone who has 36 years’ experience in local government, I am, to say the least, disappointed in the lack of political oversight and the weakness of the way in which certain elected members discharge their responsibilities. I am staggered that council officers, up to the most senior levels, failed to engage with or support members properly. If I were leader of that council, they would not be there long.

Lindsay Whittle: Diolch, Ddirprwy Weinidog, am y sesiwn briffio bore yma. Yr oedd yn hynod o ddefnyddiol. Fel rhywun sydd â 36 mlynedd o brofiad mewn llywodraeth leol, yr wyf yn siomedig, a dweud y lleiaf, gyda’r diffyg goruchwyliaeth wleidyddol a’r gwendid yn y ffordd y mae rhai aelodau etholedig yn cyflawni eu cyfrifoldebau. Yr wyf yn synnu’n fawr fod swyddogion y cyngor, hyd at y lefelau uchaf, wedi methu ag ymgysylltu ag aelodau na’u cefnogi’n briodol. Pe bawn yn arweinydd ar y cyngor hwnnw, ni fyddent yno’n hir.

For our part, Deputy Minister, we welcome your actions, and agree that it was indeed vital that you appointed a chair of the advisory board with a legal background. That is essential to ensure that proper procedures are carried out in monitoring the progress made by the council in ensuring that incidents such as this do not happen again. It is more than highly regrettable that Criminal Records Bureau checks were not carried out on 100 per cent of school staff. I know of councils that carry out CRB checks on members of their authorities every three years.

O’n rhan ni, Ddirprwy Weinidog, croesawn eich camau, a chytunwn ei bod yn wir yn hanfodol eich bod yn penodi cadeirydd i’r bwrdd ymgynghorol sydd â chefndir cyfreithiol. Mae hynny’n hanfodol i sicrhau bod gweithdrefnau priodol yn cael eu cynnal wrth fonitro’r cynnydd a wnaed gan y cyngor i sicrhau nad yw pethau fel hyn yn digwydd eto. Mae’n wirioneddol anffodus na gynhaliwyd gwiriadau Swyddfa Cofnodion Troseddol ar 100 y cant o staff ysgol. Rwy’n ymwybodol o gynghorau sy’n cynnal gwiriadau Swyddfa Cofnodion Troseddol ar aelodau o’u hawdurdodau bob tair blynedd.

This cannot be allowed to happen in Wales again. Deputy Minister, I reiterate the call for you to explain how this can be monitored. It is important to focus on the needs of the victims and their families in providing appropriate and ongoing support, and, as you mentioned in your report, it is also important that the children’s voices are not just heard, but listened to and acted upon. My party seeks your assurance on this and will also be seeking your assurance as to how this will be monitored. Let the message go out loud and clear from this Chamber: we do not just want rhetoric on this issue; we want the appropriate action to be taken at every level. We will need tangible evidence from Pembrokeshire County Council and that board that the mechanisms will be set up quickly to ensure that, in future in Pembrokeshire, children will be listened to. The safety and protection of children transcends politics; there are no cheap shots to fire here. This parliament must be united, as indeed it is, on this issue of child protection and safety. I thank you, Deputy Minister, for your courtesy.

Ni ellir caniatáu i hyn ddigwydd yng Nghymru eto. Ddirprwy Weinidog, galwaf eto arnoch i egluro sut y gellir monitro hyn. Mae’n bwysig canolbwyntio ar anghenion y dioddefwyr a’u teuluoedd i ddarparu cymorth priodol a pharhaus, ac, fel y soniwyd gennych yn eich adroddiad, mae hefyd yn bwysig nid yn unig bod lleisiau’r plant yn cael eu clywed, ond y gwrandewir ac y gweithredir arnynt. Mae fy mhlaid yn ceisio eich sicrwydd ar hyn a bydd hefyd yn gofyn am eich sicrwydd o ran sut y caiff hyn ei fonitro. Gadewch i’r neges ddod yn groyw o’r Siambr hon: nid dim ond rhethreg rydym am ei weld ar y mater hwn; yr ydym am i’r camau priodol gael eu cymryd ar bob lefel. Bydd arnom angen tystiolaeth bendant o gan Gyngor Sir Penfro a’r bwrdd hwnnw y bydd y mecanweithiau’n cael eu sefydlu yn gyflym i sicrhau, yn y dyfodol, yn sir Benfro, y gwrandewir ar blant. Mae diogelwch ac amddiffyn plant yn mynd tu hwnt i wleidyddiaeth; nid oes pwyntiau i’w sgorio fan hyn. Mae’n rhaid i’r senedd hon fod yn unedig, fel, yn wir, y mae, ar y mater hwn o amddiffyn a diogelu plant. Diolch, Ddirprwy Weinidog, am eich cwrteisi.

Gwenda Thomas: I thank the Member for those comments and for attending the briefing earlier today. I take your point about having a chair with a legal background. A board of that nature, answerable to Ministers, has worked well in Swansea, for example, and so it is a good way forward. I also take your point on CRB checks. You will know that we are awaiting the decision of the Westminster Government on the new system to be put in place. I think that it will bring some improvements. For example, as I understand it, people will be able to take a CRB check with them from one job to another, if that CRB check is recent and acceptable.

Gwenda Thomas: Diolch i’r Aelod am y sylwadau hynny ac am fynychu’r sesiwn briffio yn gynharach heddiw. Derbyniaf eich pwynt ynglŷn â chael cadeirydd â chefndir cyfreithiol. Mae bwrdd o’r natur hwnnw, yn atebol i Weinidogion, wedi gweithio’n dda yn Abertawe, er enghraifft, ac felly mae’n ffordd dda ymlaen. Derbyniaf hefyd eich pwynt ar wiriadau CRB. Byddwch yn gwybod ein bod yn aros am benderfyniad Llywodraeth San Steffan ar y system newydd a gaiff ei rhoi ar waith. Credaf y bydd yn dod â rhai gwelliannau. Er enghraifft, fel y deallaf, bydd pobl yn gallu mynd â gwiriad CRB gyda hwy o un swydd i’r llall, os yw’r gwiriad CRB hwnnw’n ddiweddar ac yn dderbyniol.

The leader of Pembrokeshire County Council assured me this morning that he is keen to co-operate and that he welcomes the establishment of this board and will co-operate with it. I am glad of that attitude from the leader. It is important that we realise that the welfare and the safeguarding of children must come first and I now look forward to the establishment of that board and to the development of a reporting and monitoring process from that board to us as Ministers in the Welsh Government.

Fe wnaeth arweinydd Cyngor Sir Penfro fy sicrhau y bore yma ei fod yn awyddus i gydweithredu a’i fod yn croesawu sefydlu’r bwrdd hwn ac y bydd yn cydweithredu ag ef. Yr wyf yn falch o’r agwedd honno gan yr arweinydd. Mae’n bwysig ein bod yn sylweddoli bod rhaid i les a diogelu plant ddod yn gyntaf ac edrychaf ymlaen yn awr at sefydlu’r bwrdd hwnnw ac at ddatblygu proses adrodd a monitro gan y bwrdd hwnnw i ni fel Gweinidogion yn Llywodraeth Cymru.

William Powell: I also pay tribute to the Deputy Minister for the openness with which she has approached this issue and for timetabling the briefing this morning. This mirrors the way in which the Minister for Education and Skills handled the matter back in August when we looked at other aspects of the report. Therefore, I would like to put that on record, on behalf of my party and myself.

William Powell: Talaf deyrnged hefyd i’r Dirprwy Weinidog am y ffordd agored y mae hi wedi ymdrin â’r mater hwn ac am drefnu’r sesiwn friffio y bore yma. Mae hyn yn adlewyrchu’r ffordd y gwnaeth y Gweinidog Addysg a Sgiliau drin y mater ym mis Awst pan edrychasom ar agweddau eraill ar yr adroddiad. Felly, hoffwn ddweud hynny ar goedd, ar ran fy mhlaid a minnau.

This report is a damning indictment of some of the practices and failures within Pembrokeshire County Council over a number of years and it needs to be taken with utmost seriousness. Some of us were quite dismayed at the media spat that arose in the summer, when it seemed that priorities were somewhat misguided with regard to what was important here. As Lindsay Whittle has said, child protection is the key issue here. I was pleased to see that Phil Robson, with whom I have worked closely in his previous role within Mid and West Wales, has had his part to play in taking things forward. I also welcome the proposed appointment of someone with a background in legal affairs to bring the appropriate level of scrutiny to these matters. The announcement regarding the Auditor General for Wales’s proposed move on corporate governance issues was also good news, because many of these failures would not have come about if we had had the appropriate culture and the appropriate attention given to these matters. As Joyce Watson, who has more experience of this authority than I have, said, there are issues relating to accountability and follow-up that needed to considered.

Mae’r adroddiad hwn yn gyhuddiad damniol o rai o’r arferion a’r methiannau yng Nghyngor Sir Penfro dros nifer o flynyddoedd ac mae angen ei ystyried gyda’r difrifoldeb mwyaf. Roedd rhai ohonom yn eithaf siomedig gyda’r ffrae a gododd yn y cyfryngau yn yr haf, pan ymddangosai bod blaenoriaethau wedi bod rhywfaint yn gyfeiliornus o ran beth oedd yn bwysig yn hyn o beth. Fel y dywedodd Lindsay Whittle, diogelu plant yw’r peth pwysig yma. Yr oeddwn yn falch o weld bod Phil Robson, y bûm yn gweithio’n agos gydag ef yn ei rôl flaenorol o fewn Canolbarth a Gorllewin Cymru, wedi chwarae rhan yn bwrw pethau yn eu blaen. Croesawaf hefyd y penodiad arfaethedig o rywun â chefndir mewn materion cyfreithiol i ddod â’r lefel briodol o graffu i’r materion hyn. Roedd y cyhoeddiad ynglŷn â symud arfaethedig Archwilydd Cyffredinol Cymru ar faterion llywodraethu corfforaethol hefyd yn newyddion da, oherwydd ni fyddai llawer o’r methiannau hyn wedi codi pe bai gennym y diwylliant priodol ac wedi rhoi’r sylw priodol i’r materion hyn. Fel y dywedodd Joyce Watson, sydd â mwy o brofiad o’r awdurdod hwn na fi, mae materion sy’n ymwneud ag atebolrwydd a dilyniant y mae angen eu hystyried.

I have two questions that I would like to ask. First, does the Minister consider that there is scope for the children’s commissioner to have a role in the wider issues in this case? Secondly, what could the role of the Welsh Local Government Association be in safeguarding some of the lessons that need to be learned for the benefit of authorities throughout Wales? As I have said, the response is proportionate. There is always the opportunity to go back if we do not see consistent improvement. It is encouraging that there appears to be a change of emphasis in the authority. However, we also need to be aware that we are moving into the sunset phase of this council, and that is why it is important that there is stability in delivering improvement for the young people in Pembrokeshire and, indeed, the rest of Wales.

Mae gennyf ddau gwestiwn yr hoffwn eu gofyn. Yn gyntaf, a yw’r Gweinidog yn ystyried bod sgôp i’r comisiynydd plant chwarae rhan yn y materion ehangach yn yr achos hwn? Yn ail, beth allai rôl Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru fod o ran sicrhau bod rhai o’r gwersi sydd angen eu dysgu er budd awdurdodau ledled Cymru yn cael eu dysgu? Fel y dywedais, mae’r ymateb yn gymesur. Mae wastad cyfle i fynd yn ôl os nad ydym yn gweld gwelliant cyson. Mae’n galonogol bod newid pwyslais yn yr awdurdod, i bob golwg. Fodd bynnag, mae angen hefyd i ni fod yn ymwybodol ein bod yn symud i gyfnod machlud y cyngor hwn, a dyna pam ei bod yn bwysig fod sefydlogrwydd wrth sicrhau gwelliant i bobl ifanc yn sir Benfro, ac, yn wir, yng ngweddill Cymru.

Gwenda Thomas: I thank William Powell for those comments and for attending the briefing. We have received the report of the ministerial advisory board, which shows that there has been improvement in Pembrokeshire as well as a change of attitude. I take your point about the scrutiny that will be undertaken by the new ministerial board, but I would stress that the independence of the chair will be the key to success in the future. The children’s commissioner has visited Pembrokeshire. I am always ready and willing to listen to any advice from Keith Towler, whose role has been to raise the voices of the children, and his independence from us is important. I am sure that he will be keeping a keen eye on what happens in Pembrokeshire.

Gwenda Thomas: Diolch i William Powell am y sylwadau hynny ac am fynychu’r sesiwn friffio. Rydym wedi derbyn adroddiad y bwrdd cynghori gweinidogol, sy’n dangos y bu gwelliant yn sir Benfro yn ogystal â newid agwedd. Derbyniaf eich pwynt am y craffu a gaiff ei gynnal gan y bwrdd gweinidogol newydd, ond byddwn yn pwysleisio mai annibyniaeth y cadeirydd fydd yr allwedd i lwyddiant yn y dyfodol. Mae’r comisiynydd plant wedi ymweld â sir Benfro. Yr wyf wastad yn barod i wrando ar unrhyw gyngor gan Keith Towler, gan mai ei rôl yw codi lleisiau plant, ac mae ei annibyniaeth oddi arnom yn bwysig. Yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd yn cadw llygad ar yr hyn sy’n digwydd yn sir Benfro.

I should have mentioned in my response to Darren Millar how we can be as sure as we can be that things are right in other authorities, which he asked about, and I can couple my response on that with my response to your point, William, on the WLGA. The Minister for education and I have written to all authorities in Wales to ask them to assure us that they are enforcing policies and that everything is well. The policies are there; this is not a policy issue, but a system issue. They have until Friday 23 September to respond to us, and I am sure that we will consider sharing the authorities’ response and being as open as we can be about that. The stability and continuity of improvement will be very important indeed. We are coming to a point in local authorities’ political calendar when we will need to ensure that improvement continues into the next council.

Fe ddylwn i fod wedi crybwyll yn fy ymateb i Darren Millar sut y gallwn fod mor sicr ag y gallwn fod bod pethau’n iawn mewn awdurdodau eraill, sef yr hyn y gwnaeth ofyn amdano, a gallaf gyplysu fy ymateb ar hynny â’m hymateb i’ch pwynt chi, William, ar CLlLC. Mae’r Gweinidog dros addysg a minnau wedi ysgrifennu at bob awdurdod yng Nghymru i ofyn iddynt roi sicrwydd i ni eu bod yn gorfodi polisïau a bod popeth yn iawn. Mae’r polisïau yno; nid yw hyn yn fater polisi, ond yn fater system. Mae ganddyn nhw tan ddydd Gwener 23 Medi i ymateb i ni, ac yr wyf yn siŵr y byddwn yn ystyried rhannu ymatebion yr awdurdodau a bod mor agored ag y gallwn fod am hynny. Bydd y sefydlogrwydd a pharhad y gwelliant yn bwysig iawn. Yr ydym yn dod at bwynt yng nghalendr gwleidyddol awdurdodau lleol pan fydd arnom angen sicrhau bod gwelliannau yn parhau yn y cyngor nesaf.

The Presiding Officer: We have heard the spokespeople from every party, so I would appreciate it if the remaining speakers could make their preambles very short before coming to their questions.

Y Llywydd: Rydym wedi clywed llefarwyr o bob plaid, felly byddwn yn gwerthfawrogi pe gallai’r siaradwyr sy’n weddill wneud rhagymadroddion byr iawn cyn dod i’w cwestiynau.

Angela Burns: I thank the Deputy Minister for Children and Social Services and the Minister for Education and Skills for their briefings over the past few months. As one of the constituency Assembly Members for Pembrokeshire, I have appreciated that. You are absolutely right that there is nothing more important than looking after children. Every speaker today has reiterated that. I read the report and was incandescent with rage. I read it first as a mother whose children have been to schools in Pembrokeshire. I then read it as an Assembly Member, and I thought of my friends and their children. There is no doubt that the county council made serious mistakes. I am delighted to see the draft safeguarding proposals that it has made, and I am also delighted, Deputy Minister, that you have taken that on and that you intend to keep a ministerial advisory board there and to have a person with a legal background in charge to ensure that all of this happens.

Angela Burns: Diolch i’r Dirprwy Weinidog Plant a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol a’r Gweinidog Addysg a Sgiliau am eu sesiynau briffio dros y misoedd diwethaf. Fel un o’r Aelodau Cynulliad ar gyfer etholaeth sir Benfro, rwyf wedi gwerthfawrogi hynny. Yr ydych yn llygad eich lle nad oes dim byd yn bwysicach nac edrych ar ôl plant. Mae pob siaradwr heddiw wedi ailadrodd hynny. Darllenais yr adroddiad ac roeddwn yn gynddeiriog. Fe’i darllenais ef yn gyntaf fel mam â phlant sydd wedi mynychu ysgolion yn sir Benfro. Yna, fe’i darllenais fel Aelod Cynulliad, a meddyliais am fy ffrindiau a’u plant. Nid oes amheuaeth bod y cyngor sir wedi gwneud camgymeriadau difrifol. Yr wyf yn falch iawn o weld y cynigion diogelu drafft y mae wedi eu gwneud, ac yr wyf hefyd yn falch iawn, Ddirprwy Weinidog, eich bod wedi mynd i’r afael â hynny ac yn bwriadu cadw bwrdd cynghori gweinidogol yno a chael unigolyn â chefndir yn y gyfraith wrth y llyw i sicrhau bod hyn oll yn digwydd.

All of this is well and good, but I have to make a point that is difficult to make, because safeguarding children is an emotive issue. The A477 and A40 going into Pembrokeshire do not just stop; there is two-way traffic. I do not believe that Pembrokeshire can possibly have been working in isolation, doing this on its own for all of these weeks and months. [Interruption.] Sorry, is that me?

Mae hyn oll yn iawn, ond rhaid imi wneud pwynt sy’n anodd ei wneud, gan fod diogelu plant yn fater emosiynol. Nid yw’r A477 a’r A40 sy’n mynd i mewn i sir Benfro yn stopio; mae yna draffig ddwyffordd.  Nid wyf yn credu y bu sir Benfro yn gweithio ar wahân, gan wneud hyn ar ei ben ei hun am yr holl wythnosau a misoedd hyn. [Torri ar draws.] Mae’n ddrwg gen i, ai fi yw hwnna?

4.00 p.m.

The Presiding Officer: Order. If it is your telephone, you face a £5 fine. [Laughter.]

Y Llywydd: Trefn. Os mai eich ffôn chi yw hwnnw, byddwch yn wynebu dirwy o £5. [Chwerthin.]

Angela Burns: I do not think that it is mine.

Angela Burns: Nid wyf yn credu mai fy un i yw e.

The Presiding Officer: Could people check that their mobile phones are switched off, please, because something is interfering with the system.

Y Llywydd: A all pobl sicrhau bod eu ffonau symudol wedi cael eu diffodd, os gwelwch yn dda, gan fod rhywbeth yn amharu ar y system.

Angela Burns: My concern, Deputy Minister, is that, for the last three or four years, Pembrokeshire County Council has received some glowing reports from agencies that we commission to ensure that county councils are kept on their toes. A Care and Social Services Inspectorate Wales report in October 2009 told the council that its processes were great. An Estyn report in 2008 said that everything was rosy in the garden. I have tried to meet all those involved to understand what has changed. For example, I have met Ann Keane of Estyn to try to understand the difference between the Estyn reports of then and now. I am working my way through it. However, it causes me great concern that the Wales Audit Office gave it an excellent corporate governance report less than a year ago. Therefore, I have two questions to ask of you, Minister. First, where have all of the other agencies been; why did they give Pembrokeshire County Council such outstanding support and why did they tell it that it was a premier council that was doing extremely well, because it has failed in its duty? By not telling Pembrokeshire County Council what it has done wrong, we have not been able to give it the correct guidance to ensure that it is doing a good job.

Angela Burns: Fy mhryder, Ddirprwy Weinidog, yw bod Cyngor Sir Penfro, dros y dair neu bedair blynedd diwethaf, wedi derbyn ambell i adroddiad disglair gan asiantaethau yr ydym yn eu comisiynu i sicrhau bod cynghorau sir yn cael eu cadw ar flaenau eu traed. Dywedodd adroddiad Arolygiaeth Gofal a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol Cymru ym mis Hydref 2009 wrth y cyngor bod ei brosesau yn wych. Dywedodd adroddiad Estyn yn 2008 fod popeth yn fêl i gyd. Rwyf wedi ceisio cwrdd â phawb sy’n gysylltiedig i ddeall beth sydd wedi newid. Er enghraifft, yr wyf wedi cyfarfod ag Ann Keane o Estyn i geisio deall y gwahaniaeth rhwng adroddiadau Estyn ddoe a heddiw. Yr wyf yn gweithio fy ffordd drwyddo. Fodd bynnag, mae’n destun pryder mawr i mi bod Swyddfa Archwilio Cymru wedi rhoi adroddiad llywodraethu corfforaethol ardderchog iddo lai na blwyddyn yn ôl. Felly, mae gennyf ddau gwestiwn i’w gofyn i chi, Weinidog. Yn gyntaf, ble mae pob un o’r asiantaethau eraill wedi bod; pam y gwnaethant roi cymorth mor rhagorol i Gyngor Sir Penfro a pham wnaethon nhw ddweud wrtho ei fod yn gyngor rhagorol a oedd yn gwneud yn dda iawn, gan ei fod wedi methu yn ei ddyletswydd?  Drwy beidio â dweud wrth Gyngor Sir Penfro beth a wnaeth o’i le, nid ydym wedi gallu rhoi’r arweiniad cywir iddo i sicrhau ei fod yn gwneud gwaith da.

Secondly, the Booth and Munday report on the practices in the pupil referral unit, which referred to the fact that pupils in the pupil referral unit were being restrained inappropriately, highlighted significant confusion over legislation—the guidance and legislative responses and practices of two different agencies, namely education and social services. Therefore, can the Welsh Government look at what statutory guidance may need to be put in place in future to ensure that there is no lack of clarity between the way that social services interpret guidance, policy and law and the way in which education services interpret guidance, policy and law? There are two questions there, Deputy Minister: what are we going to do legislatively, and where on earth have all of these other agencies been? They have supported Pembrokeshire and told it that it has done a very good job, but today we find that that is not the case. Those agencies need to be looked at, too.

Yn ail, mae adroddiad Booth a Munday ar yr arferion yn yr uned cyfeirio disgyblion, a oedd yn cyfeirio at y ffaith bod disgyblion yn yr uned cyfeirio disgyblion yn cael eu hatal yn amhriodol, wedi amlygu dryswch sylweddol dros deddfwriaeth—canllawiau ac ymatebion deddfwriaethol ac arferion dwy asiantaeth wahanol, sef addysg a gwasanaethau cymdeithasol. Felly, a all Llywodraeth Cymru edrych ar ba ganllawiau statudol y gellid eu rhoi ar waith yn y dyfodol i sicrhau nad oes unrhyw ddiffyg eglurder rhwng y ffordd y mae gwasanaethau cymdeithasol yn dehongli canllawiau, polisi a chyfraith a’r modd y mae gwasanaethau addysg yn dehongli canllawiau, polisi a chyfraith? Mae dau gwestiwn yno, Ddirprwy Weinidog: beth ydym yn mynd i’w wneud yn ddeddfwriaethol, a lle ar y ddaear mae pob un o’r asiantaethau eraill wedi bod? Maent wedi cefnogi sir Benfro a dweud wrtho ei fod wedi gwneud gwaith da iawn, ond heddiw rydym yn darganfod nad yw hynny’n wir. Mae angen edrych ar yr asiantaethau hynny, hefyd.

Gwenda Thomas: I thank Angela Burns for those comments. You have made many wide-ranging points and I respect the points that you have made. There were good reports prior to matters being brought to our attention. When we became aware of those, we then launched a joint investigation by CSSIW and Estyn. The WAO report has been arranged and will be undertaken in November. When the findings of that report come to hand, I am sure that the Minister for Local Government and Communities will take them very seriously indeed and will give them due consideration and take into account the cross-portfolio issues that might arise from that.

Gwenda Thomas: Diolch i Angela Burns am y sylwadau hynny. Yr ydych wedi gwneud llawer o bwyntiau eang ac yr wyf yn parchu y pwyntiau a wnaethoch. Cafwyd adroddiadau da cyn i faterion gael eu dwyn i’n sylw. Pan ddaethom yn ymwybodol o’r rheiny, gwnaethom wedyn lansio ymchwiliad ar y cyd gan AGGCC ac Estyn. Mae adroddiad Swyddfa Archwilio Cymru wedi ei drefnu a bydd yn cael ei gynnal ym mis Tachwedd. Pan fydd y canfyddiadau o’r adroddiad hwnnw yn dod i law, yr wyf yn sicr y bydd y Gweinidog Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau yn eu cymryd o ddifrif ac y bydd yn rhoi ystyriaeth briodol iddynt a’r materion traws-bortffolio a allai ddeillio o hynny.

With regard to your reference to the PRU, I remind you that a joint review is being undertaken by Dyfed Powys Police and Pembrokeshire County Council into the handling of the 25 cases, plus the further case that has come to our attention. We must await the findings of that investigation. We know that there is a review into joint handling, which is very important. The police are very much a part of that and a review is being undertaken of the joint handling of safeguarding in Pembrokeshire. That involves CSSIW, Estyn, Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary, Healthcare Inspectorate Wales and the probation service. We need to await the findings of that review as well. As I mentioned in my opening comments, quite a lot more information will come to us about the position in Pembrokeshire. We will take all of that into account, but I believe that we need this board to help us to consider any additional information and monitor the way forward. That is why I think it is best to establish this board with the legal chair in order to get the best advice possible. Of course, this ministerial board will be answerable to us as Ministers.

O ran eich cyfeiriad at yr UCD, yr wyf yn eich atgoffa bod adolygiad ar y cyd yn cael ei gynnal gan Heddlu Dyfed Powys a Chyngor Sir Penfro i’r ffordd yr ymdriniwyd â’r 25 achos, yn ogystal â’r achos pellach sydd wedi dod i’n sylw. Mae’n rhaid i ni aros am ganfyddiadau’r ymchwiliad hwnnw. Rydym yn gwybod bod adolygiad ar gyd-drafod, sy’n bwysig iawn. Mae’r heddlu yn rhan fawr o hynny ac mae adolygiad yn cael ei gynnal o’r cyd-drafod o ddiogelu yn sir Benfro. Mae hyn yn cynnwys AGGCC, Estyn, Arolygiaeth Cwnstabliaeth Ei Mawrhydi, Arolygiaeth Gofal Iechyd Cymru a’r gwasanaeth prawf.  Mae angen i ni aros am ganfyddiadau’r adolygiad hwnnw hefyd. Fel y soniais yn fy sylwadau agoriadol, bydd tipyn mwy o wybodaeth yn dod atom am y sefyllfa yn sir Benfro. Byddwn yn cymryd hynny i gyd i ystyriaeth, ond credaf fod angen y bwrdd hwn i’n helpu i ystyried unrhyw wybodaeth ychwanegol a monitro’r ffordd ymlaen. Dyna pam yr wyf yn meddwl mai’r peth gorau yw sefydlu’r bwrdd hwn gyda chadeirydd cyfreithiol er mwyn cael y cyngor gorau posibl. Wrth gwrs, bydd y bwrdd gweinidogol yn atebol i ni fel Gweinidogion.

Simon Thomas: I would like to thank the Deputy Minister for her statement today. I would also like to thank the Minister for education for his work on this matter. Most of the points I was going to make have been made, so I will not reiterate them. For many local people, what came out of these reports was, of course, shocking, but not surprising. It is not for nothing that the council has been known for a long time as the ‘Kremlin on the Cleddau’. The lack of information, scrutiny and accountability in this authority has been a problem locally for a while now. In answer to Angela’s points, perhaps the reason for this authority having decent reports in the past is that it pulled the wool over people’s eyes and did not share the information properly with the agencies going in to examine its processes. This is an opportunity for the authority to change. After a rather hesitant, defensive and regrettable start, it now seems to have woken up to its responsibilities, and I welcome that.

Simon Thomas: Hoffwn ddiolch i’r Dirprwy Weinidog am ei datganiad heddiw. Hoffwn hefyd ddiolch i’r Gweinidog addysg am ei waith ar y mater hwn. Mae’r rhan fwyaf o’r pwyntiau yr oeddwn yn mynd i’w gwneud wedi cael eu gwneud, felly nid wyf am eu hailadrodd. I lawer o bobl leol, roedd yr hyn a ddaeth allan o’r adroddiadau hyn yn frawychus, wrth gwrs, ond nid yn syndod. Nid am ddim reswm y mae’r cyngor wedi cael ei adnabod ers amser hir fel y ‘Kremlin ar y Cleddau’. Mae’r diffyg gwybodaeth, craffu ac atebolrwydd yn yr awdurdod hwn wedi bod yn broblem leol am sbel nawr. Mewn ateb i bwyntiau Angela, efallai mai’r rheswm y cafodd yr awdurdod hwn adroddiadau da yn y gorffennol yw oherwydd ei fod yn taflu llwch i lygaid pobl ac nad oedd yn rhannu’r wybodaeth yn briodol gyda’r asiantaethau a oedd yn mynd i mewn i archwilio ei brosesau. Dyma gyfle i’r awdurdod i newid. Ar ôl dechrau braidd yn betrusgar, amddiffynnol ac anffodus, ymddengys yn awr ei fod wedi deffro i’w gyfrifoldebau, a chroesawaf hynny.

However, there are two things that are of particular concern to me. One is that proper scrutiny is allowed within the authority between members. There have been moves to appoint new independent chairs of scrutiny committees. Nevertheless, I am concerned that all councillors—and I mean all councillors—are not being given the full information with which they can properly scrutinise the decision making that goes in Pembrokeshire County Council. In acting for the Government, is the Deputy Minister—or indeed the Minister for Local Government and Communities, who is here in his seat—convinced that this authority has the proper procedures in place to allow whistleblowing to happen and to encourage whistleblowers to come forth with examples of bad practice? It seems to me that, for too long, Pembrokeshire County Council has had a defensive insular attitude to things going wrong within the authority and has not been prepared to share and learn from examples of best practice elsewhere. For too long, it has put people in position before the children and the communities it serves. That has to change, and the steps set out today by the Deputy Minister are a welcome first step in that process.

Fodd bynnag, mae dau beth sy’n peri pryder arbennig i mi. Un yw bod craffu priodol yn cael ei ganiatáu o fewn yr awdurdod rhwng aelodau. Mae camau wedi bod i benodi cadeiryddion annibynnol newydd ar y pwyllgorau craffu. Serch hynny, yr wyf yn poeni nad yw pob cynghorydd—ac yr wyf yn golygu pob cynghorydd—yn cael y wybodaeth lawn er mwyn iddynt allu craffu’n iawn ar y broses gwneud penderfyniadau yng Nghyngor Sir Penfro. Wrth weithredu ar ran y Llywodraeth, a yw’r Dirprwy Weinidog—neu yn wir y Gweinidog Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau, sydd yma yn ei sedd—wedi’u hargyhoeddi bod gan yr awdurdod hwn weithdrefnau priodol ar waith i ganiatáu chwythu’r chwiban i ddigwydd ac i annog chwythwyr chwiban i ddod allan gydag enghreifftiau o arfer gwael? Mae’n ymddangos i mi fod Cyngor Sir Penfro, ers rhy hir, wedi meddu ar agwedd ynysig amddiffynnol i bethau yn mynd o’i le o fewn yr awdurdod ac ni fu’n barod i rannu a dysgu o enghreifftiau o arfer gorau mewn mannau eraill. Ers rhy hir, mae wedi rhoi pobl mewn lle cyn y plant a’r cymunedau y mae’n eu gwasanaethu. Rhaid i hynny newid, ac mae’r camau a amlinellir heddiw gan y Dirprwy Weinidog yn gam cyntaf i’w groesawu yn y broses honno.

Gwenda Thomas: I thank Simon Thomas for that. I take on board his points. Of course, we will be considering the comments made in this debate as part of our future considerations. If there are any specific cases concerning the safeguarding of children that come to anyone’s attention—whether we are Assembly Members, members of local authorities or whatever—it is our duty to bring those to the attention of people who can do something about it. I am sure that that is a message that we need to send out from here as well. There is no doubt in my mind that effective scrutiny is a way of safeguarding children. We now have the internal improvement board in Pembrokeshire, which has a cross-party ethos, and that is to be welcomed. Whistleblowing is very important. I am sure that, within its terms of reference, the new ministerial board will have this at its heart. Generally, the importance of safeguarding will not be missed by that board.

Gwenda Thomas: Diolch i Simon Thomas am hynny. Yr wyf yn derbyn ei bwyntiau. Wrth gwrs, byddwn yn ystyried y sylwadau a wnaed yn y ddadl hon fel rhan o’n hystyriaethau yn y dyfodol. Os oes unrhyw achosion penodol yn ymwneud â diogelu plant sy’n dod i sylw unrhyw un—pa un ai ydym yn Aelodau Cynulliad, aelodau o awdurdodau lleol neu beth bynnag—mae’n ddyletswydd arnom i ddod â hynny i sylw pobl sy’n gallu gwneud rhywbeth am y peth. Yr wyf yn siŵr bod hwnnw’n neges y mae angen i ni ei gyfleu oddi yma hefyd. Nid oes amheuaeth gen i bod craffu effeithiol yn ffordd o ddiogelu plant. Erbyn hyn mae gennym y bwrdd gwella mewnol yn sir Benfro, sydd ag ethos drawsbleidiol, ac mae hynny i’w groesawu. Mae chwythu’r chwiban yn bwysig iawn. Yr wyf yn sicr, o fewn ei gylch gorchwyl, t bydd hyn wrth galon y bwrdd gweinidogol. Yn gyffredinol, bydd pwysigrwydd diogelu yn flaenoriaeth i’r bwrdd.

Paul Davies: Diolchaf i’r Dirprwy Weinidog am y datganiad. Diolchaf hefyd i’r Dirprwy Weinidog ac i’r Gweinidog addysg am gadw mewn cysylltiad â mi, fel un o’r Aelodau sy’n cynrychioli sir Benfro, ynglŷn â’r materion hyn. Pan gyhoeddodd CSSIW ac Estyn yr adroddiadau, yr oeddem i gyd yn bryderus oherwydd eu canfyddiadau. Mae’r materion hyn yn peri pryder i bob cymuned yn sir Benfro, a rhaid cydnabod bod rhai o’r methiannau y cyfeirir atynt yn y ddau adroddiad wedi effeithio ar les disgyblion a phobl ifanc. Mae’n hanfodol yn awr bod strwythurau priodol yn cael eu rhoi ar waith i sicrhau na fydd y sefyllfa hon yn digwydd eto. Mae’n hanfodol hefyd bod prosesau craffu cadarn yn cael eu rhoi ar waith a bod y wybodaeth briodol yn cael ei rhannu â chynghorwyr.

Paul Davies: I thank the Deputy Minister for the statement. I also thank the Deputy Minister and the Minister for education for maintaining contact with me, as one of the Members representing Pembrokeshire, on these issues. When CSSIW and Estyn published the reports, we were all very concerned by their findings. These issues are a matter of grave concern to all communities across Pembrokeshire and we must recognise that some of the failures referred to in the report affect the welfare of pupils and young people. It is now vital that appropriate structures are put in place to ensure that this does not happen again. It is also vital that robust scrutiny processes are put in place and that the relevant information is shared with councillors.

Fel y mae’r Dirprwy Weinidog wedi dweud, mae’n amlwg bod y cyngor, yn ystod yr wythnosau diwethaf, wedi dechrau cymryd camau i ymdrin â rhai o’r materion yn yr adroddiadau. Mae’r cynllun gweithredu sydd wedi’i lunio gan y cabinet wedi ei gymeradwyo gan y cyngor, ac ymddengys i mi ei fod yn gynllun cynhwysfawr iawn gydag amserlen benodol. A yw’r Dirprwy Weinidog yn cytuno bod hwn yn gynllun gweithredu cynhwysfawr a fydd yn gwella materion diogelu plant yn sir Benfro? Mae’n hollbwysig bod Cyngor Sir Penfro a Llywodraeth Cymru yn gweithio gyda’i gilydd ar y materion hyn. 

As the Deputy Minister has said, it is clear that the council, over the past few weeks, has taken steps to start to deal with some issues arising from the reports. The action plan put together by the cabinet has been approved by the council, and I believe that it is a comprehensive programme with a concrete timetable. Does the Deputy Minister agree that this is a comprehensive action plan that will improve the situation with regard to child safety in Pembrokeshire? It is essential that Pembrokeshire County Council and the Welsh Government work together on these issues.

Yn ogystal, a yw’r Dirprwy Weinidog yn cytuno—cyfeiriodd William Powell at hyn yn ei sylwadau ef—ei bod yn anffodus bod rhai o’r materion hyn wedi cael eu trafod yn y cyfryngau yn ystod yr wythnosau diwethaf yn hytrach na chael eu trafod rhwng Llywodraeth Cymru a Chyngor Sir Penfro mewn modd adeiladol? Yn y pen draw, rhaid i ddiogelwch a lles plant fod yn brif flaenoriaeth i ni, i Gyngor Sir Penfro ac i Lywodraeth Cymru. Yr ydym wedi clywed eisoes yn y Siambr am gydweithredu; yn sgîl y datganiad hwn, yr wyf yn gobeithio y bydd y Llywodraeth a Chyngor Sir Penfro yn parhau i weithio gyda’i gilydd i sicrhau bod diogelu ein plant yn brif flaenoriaeth yn awr ac yn y dyfodol.

In addition, does the Deputy Minister agree—William Powell referred to this in his comments—that it is unfortunate that some of these issues have been discussed by the media over the last few weeks rather than in a constructive way between the Welsh Government and Pembrokeshire County Council? Ultimately, the safety and welfare of children must be a priority for us, for Pembrokeshire County Council and for the Welsh Government. We have already heard in the Chamber about co-operation; as a result of this statement, I hope that the Government and Pembrokeshire County Council will continue to work together to ensure that ensuring the safety of our children remains a priority both now and in the future.

Gwenda Thomas: Diolch i Paul Davies am yr hyn a ddywedodd. Yr wyf yn cytuno â chi, Paul, ei bod yn hanfodol bod camau cadarn yn cael eu cymryd, yn fewnol ac yn allanol. O ran eich cwestiwn ar y cynllun gweithredu, credaf ei fod yn mynd dipyn o’r ffordd, ond nid yn ddigon pell. Yr her i’r bwrdd newydd fydd rhoi sialens a chymorth allanol er mwyn i’r awdurdod symud ymlaen. Yr wyf yn cytuno bod perthynas adeiladol yn werthfawr, a chredaf ein bod wedi troi cornel yn hynny o beth. Bydd y ffaith ein bod wedi cael consensws yn y Siambr y prynhawn yma yn anfon neges gref i sir Benfro ac i Gymru. Credaf ein bod i gyd yn cytuno mai amddiffyn a gofalu am blant sy’n bwysig. Ni fydd maddeuant os nad ydym yn gweithredu yn awr yn y modd y dylem. Bydd gwaith y bwrdd hwn yn ein harwain i’r man y dylem fynd. Dywedaf eto y bydd annibyniaeth cadeiryddiaeth y bwrdd hwnnw yn hollbwysig. Bydd barn gyfreithiol ar gael i’r bwrdd ei hunan ac i ni fel Gweinidogion, a bydd y bwrdd yn atebol i ni fel Gweinidogion ac, felly, i’r Cynulliad. Bydd hyn o gymorth i blant sir Benfro. I mi, dyna sy’n bwysig.

Gwenda Thomas: I thank Paul Davies for what he said. I agree with you, Paul, that it is essential that robust action is taken, internally and externally. On your question on the action plan, I think that it is a step in the right direction, but it does not go far enough. The task for the new board will be to offer challenge and external assistance in order for the authority to move on. I agree that a constructive relationship is valuable, and I believe that we have turned a corner on that. The fact that we have achieved consensus in the Chamber this afternoon will send a strong message to Pembrokeshire and to Wales. I think that we all agree that it is child protection and safeguarding that are important. We will not be forgiven if we do not act now in the way that we should. The work of this board will lead us to where we should be. I say again that the independent chairmanship of that board will be crucial. Legal advice will be available to the board itself and to us as Ministers, and the board will answer to us as Ministers and, therefore, to the Assembly. This will be of assistance to the children of Pembrokeshire. To me, that is what is important.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Thank you, Deputy Minister. That concludes this statement.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Diolch, Ddirprwy Weinidog. Dyna ddiwedd y datganiad hwn.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: I have selected amendments 1 and 2 in the name of Jocelyn Davies, amendments 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7 in the name of William Graham, and amendments 8 and 9 in the name of Peter Black.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Yr wyf wedi dethol gwelliannau 1 a 2 yn enw Jocelyn Davies, gwelliannau 3, 4, 5, 6 a 7 yn enw William Graham, a gwelliannau 8 a 9 yn enw Peter Black.

Cynnig NDM4796 Jane Hutt

Motion NDM4796 Jane Hutt

Cynnig bod Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru:

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:

1. Yn ystyried dull Llywodraeth Cymru o wella gwasanaethau mamolaeth yng Nghymru; ac

1. Considers the Welsh Government’s approach to improving maternity services in Wales; and

2. Yn nodi bod Llywodraeth Cymru yn credu:

2. Notes that the Welsh Government believes that:

a) y dylai gwasanaethau mamolaeth ledled Cymru gael eu trefnu i ddiwallu anghenion menywod a’u babanod;

a) maternity services across Wales, should be organised to meet the needs of women and their babies;

b) y dylai popeth posibl gael ei wneud i ddiogelu a gwella iechyd menywod a’u babanod; ac

b) everything possible should be done to protect and improve the health and well being of mothers and their babies; and

c) y dylai beichiogrwydd a geni plant fod yn brofiad diogel sy’n gwella ac yn cyfoethogi bywyd.

c) pregnancy and childbirth should be a safe, fulfilling life enhancing experience.

The Minister for Health and Social Services (Lesley Griffiths): I move the motion.

Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (Lesley Griffiths): Cynigiaf y cynnig.

I would like to invite the Assembly to debate and consider the Welsh Government’s approach to improving the quality of care for women and their babies during pregnancy and childbirth. In 2009, the Wales Audit Office reported, from a survey of women’s views on the maternity care they had received, that over 85 per cent of women said that their care was good, very good or excellent. Good progress has been made in meeting the maternity service standards set out in the national service framework for children, young people and maternity services published in 2005. So, our maternity service is already one we can be proud of, but there are more improvements to be made.

Hoffwn wahodd y Cynulliad i drafod ac ystyried dull Llywodraeth Cymru i wella ansawdd y gofal a roddir i fenywod a’u babanod yn ystod beichiogrwydd a genedigaeth. Yn 2009, dywedodd Swyddfa Archwilio Cymru, yn dilyn arolwg o safbwyntiau merched ar y gofal mamolaeth a gawsant, bod dros 85 y cant o fenywod wedi dweud bod eu gofal yn dda, yn dda iawn neu’n ardderchog. Mae cynnydd da wedi’i wneud o ran cwrdd â’r safonau gwasanaeth mamolaeth a nodwyd yn y fframwaith gwasanaeth cenedlaethol i wasanaethau plant, pobl ifanc a  mamolaeth a gyhoeddwyd yn 2005. Felly, mae ein gwasanaeth mamolaeth eisoes yn un y gallwn ymfalchïo ynddo, ond mae mwy o welliannau eto i’w gwneud.

Yesterday, I launched our new approach, entitled, ‘A Strategic Vision for Maternity Services in Wales’ at the midwife-led birth centre in the University Hospital of Wales in Cardiff. My vision is of a service that promotes pregnancy and childbirth as an event of social and emotional significance in which women and their families are treated with dignity and respect. For every mother, wherever they live, and whatever their circumstances, pregnancy and childbirth will be a safe and positive experience so that she, her partner and family can begin parenting feeling confident, capable and well-supported in giving their child a secure start in life.

Ddoe, lansiais ein dull newydd o’r enw, ‘Gweledigaeth Strategol ar gyfer Gwasanaethau Mamolaeth yng Nghymru’ yn y ganolfan enedigaeth dan arweiniad bydwragedd yn Ysbyty Athrofaol Cymru yng Nghaerdydd. Fy ngweledigaeth yw gwasanaeth sy’n hyrwyddo beichiogrwydd a genedigaeth fel digwyddiad o bwys cymdeithasol ac emosiynol y mae merched a’u teuluoedd yn cael eu trin gydag urddas a pharch. I bob mam, lle bynnag maent yn byw, a beth bynnag yw eu hamgylchiadau, bydd beichiogrwydd a genedigaeth yn brofiad diogel a chadarnhaol fel ei bod hi, ei phartner a’r teulu yn dechrau rhianta yn teimlo’n hyderus, yn abl ac wedi’u cefnogi’n dda i roi cychwyn cadarn i’w plentyn mewn bywyd.

4.15 p.m.

The Government’s motion for the debate reflects the three priorities on which we want NHS Wales to focus its efforts to make this vision a reality. First, I believe that maternity care across Wales should be organised to meet the needs of women and their babies. We know that women want to be cared for by someone they get to know well, whom they can trust and call on for advice and information early in pregnancy. I want the midwife, as the expert in normal pregnancy and birth, to be the first point of contact for the majority of women who access maternity services. This will ensure that women will receive relevant information, advice and support right from the start from someone who they will get to know well. Should a woman have complex obstetric needs, the midwife would refer her to an obstetrician who would become her lead professional.

Mae cynnig y Llywodraeth ar gyfer y ddadl yn adlewyrchu’r tair blaenoriaeth yr ydym am i GIG Cymru ganolbwyntio ei hymdrechion arnynt i wireddu’r weledigaeth hon. Yn gyntaf, yr wyf yn credu y dylai gofal mamolaeth ledled Cymru gael ei drefnu i ddiwallu anghenion menywod a’u babanod. Rydym yn gwybod bod menywod yn awyddus i dderbyn gofal gan rywun y maent yn dod i’w hadnabod yn dda, y gallant ymddiried ynddynt a galw arnynt am gyngor a gwybodaeth yn gynnar mewn beichiogrwydd. Rwyf am i’r fydwraig, fel yr arbenigwr yn ystod beichiogrwydd normal a genedigaeth, i fod yn bwynt cyswllt cyntaf ar gyfer y rhan fwyaf o fenywod sy’n cael mynediad at wasanaethau mamolaeth. Bydd hyn yn sicrhau y bydd menywod yn cael gwybodaeth, cyngor a chymorth perthnasol o’r cychwyn cyntaf gan rywun y byddant yn dod i’w hadnabod yn dda. Os yw menyw ag anghenion cymhleth obstetrig, byddai’r fydwraig yn ei chyfeirio at obstetregydd a fyddai’n dod yn arweinydd proffesiynol iddi.

Of course, GPs also have a vital role to play in supporting women and their families. They may have known them for many years and they will have a detailed understanding of their health and social issues. Some women may choose to have maternity care from their GP.

Wrth gwrs, mae gan feddygon teulu rôl hanfodol i’w chwarae wrth gefnogi menywod a’u teuluoedd. Efallai eu bod wedi eu hadnabod ers blynyddoedd lawer, a bydd ganddynt ddealltwriaeth fanwl o’u problemau iechyd a chymdeithasol. Efallai y bydd rhai menywod yn dewis cael gofal mamolaeth gan eu meddyg teulu.

In planning maternity services, each local health board must find the balance between risk, accessibility and cost to provide a range of services for women to give birth at home, in a birth centre or at a consultant-led obstetric unit. For women with complex needs and high-risk pregnancies, obstetric services must be accessible. There are challenges that must be faced in how services are organised if we are to deliver safe, high-quality care to all, which means that the revision of current services is inevitable.

Wrth gynllunio gwasanaethau mamolaeth, rhaid i bob bwrdd iechyd lleol ddod o hyd i’r cydbwysedd rhwng risg, hygyrchedd a chost i ddarparu ystod o wasanaethau i fenywod i roi genedigaeth yn y cartref, mewn canolfan geni neu mewn uned obstetreg dan arweiniad ymgynghorydd. Ar gyfer menywod sydd ag anghenion cymhleth a beichiogrwydd risg uchel, rhaid i wasanaethau obstetrig fod yn hygyrch. Mae heriau y mae’n rhaid eu hwynebu yn y ffordd y mae gwasanaethau’n cael eu trefnu os ydym i ddarparu gofal o ansawdd uchel, sy’n ddiogel i bawb, sy’n golygu bod diwygio’r gwasanaethau presennol yn anochel.

Secondly, I want the NHS to protect and improve the health and wellbeing of mothers and their babies. It is now understood and accepted that promoting the health of the baby during and even before pregnancy will enhance their life chances in terms of health, education and social standing. So, the NHS now needs to review the public health skills of its maternity care workforce to support pregnant women and their partners to adopt a healthy lifestyle. This should include support for smoking cessation, alcohol reduction and healthy eating for overweight women.

Yn ail, yr wyf am i’r GIG ddiogelu a gwella iechyd a lles mamau a’u babanod. Mae’n   ddealladwy bellach ac wedi’i dderbyn y bydd hybu iechyd y baban yn ystod a hyd yn oed cyn y beichiogrwydd yn gwella eu cyfleoedd mewn bywyd o ran iechyd, addysg a statws cymdeithasol. Felly, mae angen i’r GIG yn awr i adolygu sgiliau iechyd y cyhoedd ei weithlu gofal mamolaeth i gefnogi menywod beichiog a’u partneriaid i fabwysiadu ffordd iach o fyw. Dylai hyn gynnwys cymorth ar gyfer rhoi’r gorau i ysmygu, lleihau alcohol a bwyta’n iach i fenywod dros eu pwysau.

I also expect the NHS to identify good ways of supporting and engaging with women and their families from traditionally hard-to-reach groups, such as young teenagers, minority ethnic groups, asylum seekers and refugees. I believe that a healthy lifestyle not only supports the health of the baby, but also increases self-esteem and confidence in parenting.

Rwyf hefyd yn disgwyl i’r GIG nodi ffyrdd da o gefnogi ac ymgysylltu â menywod a’u teuluoedd sy’n dod o grwpiau sy’n draddodiadol anodd eu cyrraedd, fel pobl yn eu harddegau cynnar, grwpiau lleiafrifoedd ethnig, ceiswyr lloches a ffoaduriaid. Credaf fod ffordd iach o fyw nid yn unig yn cefnogi iechyd y baban, ond hefyd yn cynyddu hunan-barch a hyder wrth fagu plant.

Of course, for the baby, a particular priority is optimising nutrition from birth. The number of women who start to breastfeed is increasing in Wales. Between 2005 and 2010, rates increased from 67 per cent to 71 per cent, but this percentage lags behind the figures for England and Scotland. I want the NHS in Wales to find innovative ways to increase breastfeeding initiation and continuation.

Wrth gwrs, ar gyfer y babi, blaenoriaeth benodol yw gwneud y gorau o faeth o enedigaeth. Mae’r nifer o ferched sy’n dechrau bwydo ar y fron yn cynyddu yng Nghymru. Rhwng 2005 a 2010, cynyddodd y cyfraddau o 67 y cant i 71 y cant, ond mae’r canran hwn yn llusgo y tu ôl i’r ffigurau ar gyfer Lloegr a’r Alban. Rwyf am i’r GIG yng Nghymru ddod o hyd i ffyrdd arloesol o gynyddu dechrau bwydo ar y fron a pharhau hynny.

Thirdly, our new approach emphasises that pregnancy and childbirth should be a safe, fulfilling and life-enhancing experience. Women and their partners want a safe transition to parenthood and they want the experience to be positive and life-enhancing. I expect the quality of maternity services in Wales to be defined by the ability to achieve both.

Yn drydydd, mae ein dull newydd yn pwysleisio y dylai beichiogrwydd a genedigaeth fod yn brofiad diogel, boddhaus sy’n cyfoethogi bywyd. Mae menywod a’u partneriaid am bontio’n ddiogel i fagu plant ac maent am y profiad i fod yn  gadarnhaol a chyfoethogi bywyd. Yr wyf yn disgwyl ansawdd gwasanaethau mamolaeth yng Nghymru i gael ei ddiffinio gan y gallu i gyflawni’r ddau.

To guide the NHS in delivering the results that I want for women and their babies, our document, ‘A Strategic Vision for Maternity Services in Wales’, which I launched yesterday, identifies five key themes for a range of actions. These themes are: placing the needs of the mother and family at the centre of maternity care; promoting healthy lifestyles for pregnant women, which will have a positive impact on them and their family’s health; providing a range of high-quality choices of care, from midwife to consultant-led services; employing a highly trained workforce that delivers high-quality, safe and effective services and reviewing the quality of maternity services.

I arwain y GIG wrth gyflawni’r canlyniadau yr wyf eu heisiau i fenywod a’u babanod, mae ein dogfen, ‘Gweledigaeth Strategol ar gyfer Gwasanaethau Mamolaeth yng Nghymru’, a lansiwyd gennyf ddoe, yn nodi pum thema allweddol ar gyfer ystod o gamau gweithredu. Y themâu hyn yw: gosod anghenion y fam a’r teulu wrth wraidd y gofal mamolaeth; hybu ffyrdd iach o fyw i fenywod beichiog, a fydd yn cael effaith gadarnhaol arnynt hwy ac iechyd eu teulu; darparu ystod o ddewisiadau o ofal o safon uchel, o fydwraig i wasanaethau a arweinir gan ymgynghorwyr; cyflogi gweithlu tra hyfforddedig sy’n darparu gwasanaethau diogel ac effeithiol, o ansawdd uchel, ac adolygu ansawdd y gwasanaethau mamolaeth.

This week, as a contribution to enabling delivery of a world-class maternity service, I have agreed a grant of £10,000 to the School of Nursing and Midwifery Studies at Cardiff University to help establish a new academic post in Wales and the first such post of its kind anywhere in the UK, namely the Royal College of Midwives’ chair of midwifery. This post will provide key academic leadership to advance the research and development agenda to improve midwifery practice in Wales and the wider professional community.

Yr wythnos hon, fel cyfraniad at alluogi darparu gwasanaeth mamolaeth o’r radd flaenaf, yr wyf wedi cytuno i roi grant o £10,000 i Ysgol Astudiaethau Nyrsio a Bydwreigiaeth ym Mhrifysgol Caerdydd er mwyn helpu i sefydlu swydd academaidd newydd yng Nghymru a’r swydd gyntaf o’i math unrhyw le yn y DU, sef cadeirydd bydwreigiaeth Coleg Brenhinol y Bydwragedd. Bydd y swydd hon yn darparu arweiniad academaidd allweddol i ddatblygu’r agenda ymchwil a datblygu i wella arfer bydwreigiaeth yng Nghymru a’r gymuned broffesiynol ehangach.

To support the NHS, we have set up an all-Wales implementation group, co-chaired by someone who has used maternity care in Wales and the chief nursing officer. Each local health board has nominated an executive lead for maternity services who are members of this group, which has begun several streams of work designed to help support delivery. A key early priority for the group is the development of a more outcome-focused approach to monitoring the effectiveness of maternity services and the quality of the woman’s experience. The group is identifying a small set of national indicators on which the chief executive of NHS Wales will hold local health boards to account.

I gefnogi’r GIG, rydym wedi sefydlu grŵp gweithredu Cymru gyfan, wedi’i gyd-gadeirio gan rywun sydd wedi defnyddio gofal mamolaeth yng Nghymru a’r prif swyddog nyrsio.  Mae pob bwrdd iechyd lleol wedi enwebu arweinydd gweithredol ar gyfer gwasanaethau mamolaeth sy’n aelodau o’r grŵp hwn, sydd wedi dechrau sawl ffrwd o waith a gynlluniwyd i helpu i gyflenwi cymorth. Un o’r blaenoriaethau cynnar allweddol ar gyfer y grŵp yw datblygu dull sy’n canolbwyntio mwy ar ganlyniadau i fonitro effeithiolrwydd gwasanaethau mamolaeth ac ansawdd profiad y fenyw. Mae’r grŵp yn nodi cyfres fach o ddangosyddion cenedlaethol y bydd prif weithredwr GIG Cymru yn dal byrddau iechyd lleol i gyfrif arnynt.

The chief executive of NHS Wales and I have written to NHS chief executives and chairs respectively, calling on them to deliver the expectations that we have set out in the vision. Each LHB must now review the current organisation and workforce skills for delivering maternity care against the requirements of our vision. Using the outcome of this review, they will put in place a local delivery plan to map the journey and milestones for service improvements.

Mae prif weithredwr GIG Cymru a minnau wedi ysgrifennu at brif weithredwyr a chadeiryddion y GIG, gan alw arnynt i gyflawni’r disgwyliadau yr ydym wedi eu nodi yn y weledigaeth. Bellach  rhaid i bob bwrdd iechyd lleol adolygu’r sgiliau trefnu a gweithlu presennol ar gyfer darparu gofal mamolaeth yn erbyn gofynion ein gweledigaeth. Gan ddefnyddio canlyniad yr adolygiad hwn, byddant yn rhoi cynllun cyflenwi lleol ar waith i fapio’r daith a cherrig milltir ar gyfer gwelliannau i’r gwasanaeth.

Members will also be aware that local health boards are in the process of drawing up service modernisation plans for their local health services more widely, not just maternity services. I have also announced today that I am establishing an independent group of clinicians to review these proposals. This group, the national clinical forum, will give independent advice to the Welsh Government on the plans of the LHBs to ensure that they stand up to clinical best practice and deliver services of the highest quality. The health boards’ proposals must be based on addressing long-term clinical needs and improving health outcomes, not short-sighted vested interests, and they must be free from political point-scoring. This is too important an issue to become a political football and that is why I am establishing this group to assess the proposals from a clinical perspective, not a political perspective. The national clinical forum will be chaired by the medical director of NHS Wales and comprise clinicians from within the NHS, including specialists from critical care, children’s health, nursing and midwifery, and general surgery.

Bydd Aelodau hefyd yn gwybod bod byrddau iechyd lleol yn y broses o lunio cynlluniau moderneiddio gwasanaeth ar gyfer eu gwasanaethau iechyd lleol yn ehangach, nid dim ond gwasanaethau mamolaeth. Rwyf hefyd wedi cyhoeddi heddiw fy mod yn sefydlu grŵp clinigwyr annibynnol i adolygu’r cynigion hyn. Bydd y grŵp hwn, y fforwm clinigol cenedlaethol, yn rhoi cyngor annibynnol i Lywodraeth Cymru ar gynlluniau’r byrddau iechyd lleol i sicrhau eu bod yn cydfynd ag arfer clinigol gorau ac yn darparu gwasanaethau o’r radd flaenaf. Rhaid i gynigion y byrddau iechyd fod yn seiliedig ar fynd i’r afael ag anghenion clinigol hirdymor a gwella canlyniadau iechyd, nid buddiannau breintiedig annoeth, a rhaid iddynt beidio â sgorio pwyntiau gwleidyddol. Mae hyn yn fater rhy bwysig i ddod yn daten boeth wleidyddol a dyna pam yr wyf yn sefydlu’r grŵp hwn i asesu’r cynigion o safbwynt clinigol, nid o safbwynt gwleidyddol. Bydd y fforwm clinigol cenedlaethol yn cael ei gadeirio gan gyfarwyddwr meddygol GIG Cymru ac mae’n cynnwys clinigwyr o’r GIG, gan gynnwys arbenigwyr o ofal critigol, iechyd plant, nyrsio a bydwreigiaeth, a llawdriniaeth gyffredinol.

Before I finish, I want to deal with the amendments that have been tabled. I am happy to support amendments 1, 3, 5, 6 and 7, but I will be opposing amendments 2 and 4 as the organisation and delivery of services locally is a matter for the LHBs. I also reject amendment 8 as the vision is a national delivery plan: it sets out the results that we want and five themes for action by NHS Wales. Delivery is for the LHBs, not the Welsh Government. Similarly, I reject amendment 9 as the document states how it will hold the NHS to account on safe, sustainable and high-quality care. The children of Wales deserve the best possible start in life. I therefore ask Members to support the motion that I have proposed today, so that NHS Wales offers high-quality maternity services to meet the needs and wishes of women and their babies.

Cyn i mi orffen, yr wyf am ddelio â’r gwelliannau a gyflwynwyd. Yr wyf yn hapus i gefnogi gwelliannau 1, 3, 5, 6 a 7, ond byddaf yn gwrthwynebu gwelliannau 2 a 4 gan fod trefnu a darparu gwasanaethau yn fater i fyrddau iechyd lleol. Rwyf hefyd yn gwrthod gwelliant 8 gan fod y weledigaeth yn gynllun cyflawni cenedlaethol: mae’n nodi’r canlyniadau y mae arnom eisiau a phum thema i’w gweithredu gan GIG Cymru. Mae cyflawni hwn yn waith i’r byrddau iechyd lleol, nid Llywodraeth Cymru. Yn yr un modd, gwrthodaf welliant 9 gan fod y ddogfen yn nodi sut y bydd yn dal y GIG i gyfrif ar ofal diogel, cynaliadwy o ansawdd uchel. Mae plant Cymru yn haeddu’r dechrau gorau posibl mewn bywyd. Felly, gofynnaf i’r Aelodau gefnogi’r cynnig yr wyf wedi’i gynnig heddiw, fel bod GIG Cymru yn cynnig gwasanaethau mamolaeth o ansawdd uchel i gwrdd ag anghenion a dymuniadau menywod a’u babanod.

Gwelliant 1 Jocelyn Davies

Amendment 1 Jocelyn Davies

Dileu pwynt 1 a rhoi yn ei le:

Delete point 1 and replace with:

Yn cydnabod cyfrifoldeb Llywodraeth Cymru ar gyfer gwella gwasanaethau mamolaeth yng Nghymru: ac

Recognises the Welsh Government’s responsibility for improving maternity services in Wales: and

Gwelliant 2 Jocelyn Davies

Amendment 2 Jocelyn Davies

Ychwanegu fel is-bwynt newydd ar ddiwedd pwynt 2:

Add as new subpoint at end of point 2:

Y byddai llai o gyfleoedd i gael Gwasanaethau Mamolaeth dan arweiniad meddygon ymgynghorol yn arwain at fwy o risg i famau a babanod.

A reduction in accessibility to consultant led Maternity Services would lead to increased risk for mothers and babies.

Elin Jones: Cynigiaf welliannau 1 a 2 yn enw Jocelyn Davies.

Elin Jones: I move amendments 1 and 2 in the name of Jocelyn Davies.

Yr wyf yn croesawu’r ddadl hon y prynhawn yma sydd yn seiliedig ar y ddogfen a lansiodd y Gweinidog ddoe ar weledigaeth strategol ar gyfer gwasanaethau mamolaeth. Mae nifer o’r egwyddorion a’r gweithgareddau yn y ddogfen honno yn glodwiw iawn—mae’r Gweinidog wedi amlinellu nifer ohonynt—yn enwedig y pwyslais ar osod y fam, y plentyn a’r teulu yn ganolbwynt i wasanaethau ac edrych ar y cyfnod beichiogrwydd yn ei gyfanrwydd, a lles ac iechyd cyffredinol y fam a’r plentyn yn ystod y cyfnod hwnnw a thu hwnt i’r enedigaeth. Mae’n uchelgais glodwiw i ddarparu gwasanaethau modern o ansawdd uchel i bob mam a phlentyn yng Nghymru.

I welcome this afternoon’s debate, which is based on the document that the Minister launched yesterday on the strategic vision for maternity services. Many of the principles and actions contained in that document are very commendable—the Minister has outlined many of them—but particularly the emphasis on placing the mother, the child and the family at the heart of services, looking at the whole term of the pregnancy and the welfare and general health of mother and child during that period and after the birth. It is a commendable ambition to provide modern, high-quality services for all mothers and children in Wales.

Mae rôl estynedig ein bydwragedd yn ganolog i wireddu gweledigaeth y Gweinidog. Er mwyn cwrdd ag amcanion y ddogfen, mae angen gweithlu digonol o fydwragedd wedi eu hyfforddi yn y sgiliau mwyaf diweddar. Felly, mae rhai o’r ystadegau mae Coleg Brenhinol y Bydwragedd wedi eu hamlygu yn ddiweddar yn peri consyrn. Mae’r ffigurau yn dangos cynnydd o 19 y cant mewn genedigaethau dros yr wyth blynedd ddiwethaf, ond heb gynnydd cysylltiedig yn y nifer o fydwragedd. Mae’r coleg brenhinol yn amcangyfrif bod prinder o 136 o fydwragedd yn y gweithlu yng Nghymru. Gan fod rôl bydwragedd mor ganolog i strategaeth Llywodraeth Cymru a’r hyn a amlinellodd y Gweinidog, mae’n bwysig bod buddsoddiad digonol i hyfforddi bydwragedd newydd ar gyfer y gweithlu. Sylwais na fu i’r Gweinidog gyfeirio at y mater penodol ynglŷn â nifer digonol o fydwragedd yn y gweithlu yng Nghymru yn ei chyflwyniad i’r ddadl. Gofynnaf, felly, i’r Gweinidog ddweud yn ei hymateb a yw hi o’r farn bod digon o fydwragedd yn y system, neu ar fin dod i mewn i’r system, i wireddu’r hyn y mae hi wedi’i gyflwyno’r prynhawn yma, oherwydd mae’n amlwg nad yw Coleg Brenhinol y Bydwragedd wedi’i argyhoeddi ar y pwynt hwnnw.

The enhanced role of our midwives is central to achieving the Minister’s vision. To meet the objectives of the document, an adequate workforce of trained midwives with the most up-to-date skills is required. Therefore, it is concerning to see some of the statistics highlighted by the Royal College of Midwives recently. The figures show an increase of 19 per cent in births over the past eight years, but without a corresponding increase in the number of midwives. The royal college estimates that there is a shortfall of 136 midwives in the Welsh workforce. As the role of midwives is so central to the Welsh Government’s strategy and what was outlined by the Minister, it is vital that there is adequate investment in the training of new midwives for the workforce. I noted that the Minister did not refer to the specific issue of an inadequate number of midwives in the Welsh workforce during her opening contribution. Therefore, I ask the Minister to say in her response whether she believes that there are is an adequate number of midwives working in the system, or about to come into the system, to achieve the aims that she has outlined this afternoon, because it is apparent that the Royal College of Midwives remains to be convinced on that point.

Mae’n iawn i strategaeth y Llywodraeth hyrwyddo mwy o enedigaethau gyda chefnogaeth bydwragedd yn unig, ac i wella’r cyngor a chynhaliaeth iechyd i’r fam a’r plentyn. Fodd bynnag, mae canran uchel o enedigaethau yn parhau i angen ymyrraeth ychwanegol, ac yn aml mae’r angen am yr ymyrraeth glinigol hon yn ddirybudd ac yn ystod yr enedigaeth ei hun. Dyna paham fod gwrthwynebiad wedi bod, ac yn parhau i fod, mewn nifer o ardaloedd yng Nghymru i fwriadau i gau unedau mamolaeth o dan ofal ymgynghorydd meddygol.

It is right that the Government’s strategy should encourage more midwife-led births and should aim to improve the health advice and support that is available to mother and child. However, there is still a high percentage of births that require additional intervention and such clinical intervention is frequently unscheduled and the need arises during the birth itself. That is why there has been opposition, and there continues to be opposition, in so many areas of Wales to the plans to close consultant-led maternity units.

Cyn imi drafod y mater hwnnw ymhellach, hoffwn gyfeirio yn benodol at welliant 4 y Torïaid sy’n galw ar Lywodraeth Cymru i warantu gwasanaethau mamolaeth dan arweiniad meddygon ymgynghorol mewn ysbytai cyffredinol yn y gogledd. Nid yn y gogledd yn unig y mae bygythiad i’r gwasanaethau hyn, felly mae’n rhyfedd mai’r gwasanaethau yn y gogledd yn unig y mae’r Torïaid eisiau eu gwarantu. Beth am ysbytai fel Llwynhelyg, Bronglais, Nevill Hall, ac eraill lle mae’r gwasanaethau hyn o dan fygythiad hefyd?

Before I discuss that issue further, I want to make specific reference to the Tories’ amendment 4 that calls on the Welsh Government to safeguard consultant-led maternity services in general hospitals in north Wales. It is not just in north Wales that such services are under threat, therefore it is strange that the Tories want to safeguard only the services in north Wales. What about hospitals such as Withybush, Bronglais, Nevill Hall and others where such services are also under threat?

Darren Millar: Elin, you are absolutely right that there are concerns in other parts of Wales, particularly in west Wales, and I have visited Withybush hospital to hear the concerns expressed by some people. The reason why we have tabled a particular amendment about north Wales is because decisions there are imminent as far as the progress of the ongoing reviews in that part of Wales are concerned. I therefore encourage you to reconsider your position with regard to support for that amendment on those grounds. Of course we are concerned about maternity services in other parts of Wales, but our amendment has been tabled in this way because of the imminent decisions to be taken in north Wales, and it is therefore irresponsible of the Government to reject that amendment.

Darren Millar: Elin, yr ydych yn llygad eich lle bod pryderon mewn rhannau eraill o Gymru, yn enwedig yng ngorllewin Cymru, ac yr wyf wedi ymweld ag ysbyty Llwynhelyg i glywed y pryderon a fynegwyd gan rai pobl. Y rheswm yr ydym wedi cyflwyno’r gwelliant penodol am ogledd Cymru yw oherwydd fod penderfyniadau yno ar fin cael eu gwneud o ran cynnydd yr adolygiadau sydd ar y gweill yn y rhan honno o Gymru. Felly, yr wyf yn eich annog i ailystyried eich sefyllfa o ran cefnogi’r gwelliant hwnnw ar sail hynny. Wrth gwrs rydym yn pryderu am wasanaethau mamolaeth mewn rhannau eraill o Gymru, ond mae ein gwelliant wedi’i gyflwyno yn y modd hwn oherwydd y penderfyniadau sydd ar fin cael eu gwneud yng ngogledd Cymru, ac felly mae’r Llywodraeth yn anghyfrifol i wrthod y gwelliant hwnnw.

Elin Jones: Diolch am yr eglurhad hwnnw, ond gallaf ddweud bod trafodaethau yn digwydd ar hyn o bryd a bod cyfarfodydd cyhoeddus wedi digwydd dros y misoedd diwethaf mewn ardaloedd eraill yng Nghymru hefyd lle mae consyrn ynghylch unedau mamolaeth. Felly, nid wyf wedi fy argyhoeddi’n llwyr fod y Torïaid yn gweld y pwynt fod gwasanaethau sydd angen eu diogelu mewn mannau eraill yng Nghymru hefyd. Fodd bynnag, fel cyfaddawd i’r Torïaid, anogaf hwy i gefnogi gwelliant 2 Plaid Cymru sy’n cyflawni’r egwyddor y maent yn dymuno i’w chyflawni, yn hytrach na gwelliant 4, sef eu gwelliant hwy, oherwydd yr ydym eisiau gweld gwasanaeth sy’n gyfartal ac sy’n genedlaethol ar hyd a lled Cymru, yn hytrach na gwasanaeth iechyd sy’n gwahaniaethu’n rhanbarthol, a dyna berygl gwelliant y Torïaid y prynhawn yma.

Elin Jones:Thanks for that explanation, but may I say that there are ongoing discussions and there have been public meetings in recent months in other areas of Wales where there are serious concerns about maternity units? Therefore, I have not been fully convinced that the Tories understand the point that there are services that need to be safeguarded in other areas of Wales as well. However, as a compromise to the Conservatives, may I encourage them to support Plaid Cymru’s amendment 2 that achieves the principle outlined by the Tories, rather than amendment 4—their amendment—because we want to see a service that is equitable on a national basis, the length and breadth of Wales, rather than a health service that discriminates on a regional basis, and that is the risk of supporting the Tories’ amendment this afternoon?

Mae’r strategaeth yn cyfeirio at y posibilrwydd o ganoli gwasanaethau wedi’u harwain gan ymgynghorwyr ymhellach, fel yr ydym wedi’i drafod yn ystod y munudau diwethaf, ond mae’n gadael y manylion hyn i’r byrddau iechyd yn lleol, fel y dywedodd y Gweinidog. Mae’n nodi hefyd bod angen edrych ar atebion i ddiwallu anghenion gwledig, gyda’r nifer llai o enedigaethau a phroblemau pellter o ganolfannau arbenigol. Felly, er fy mod yn derbyn bod nifer o agweddau ac egwyddorion pwysig iawn wedi’u cyflwyno yn y strategaeth a gan y Gweinidog y prynhawn yma, anogaf gefnogaeth i’n gwelliant 2 er mwyn sicrhau’r cynnig gorau. Heb y gefnogaeth honno i welliant 2, ni fyddwn yn rhoi cefnogaeth ddiamod i gynnig y Llywodraeth heddiw.

The strategy refers to the possibility of further centralising consultant-led services, as we have just been discussing, but it leaves the details to the local health board, as the Minister said. It also notes that there is a need to consider solutions to meet the needs of rural areas where there are fewer births and problems with having to travel long distances to access specialist centres. Therefore, although I accept that a number of very important aspects and principles have been introduced in the strategy and by the Minister this afternoon, I encourage you all to support our amendment 2 in order to ensure the best possible motion. Without that support for amendment 2, we will not give unconditional support to the Government’s motion today.

Gwelliant 3 William Graham

Amendment 3 William Graham

Ychwanegu pwynt newydd ar ddiwedd y cynnig:

Add as new point at end of motion:

Yn cydnabod y pryder sylweddol ymysg y cyhoedd ynghylch dyfodol gwasanaethau mamolaeth yn y Gogledd.

Acknowledges the significant public concern over the future of maternity services in North Wales.

Gwelliant 4 William Graham

Amendment 4 William Graham

Ychwanegu pwynt newydd ar ddiwedd y cynnig:

Add as new point at end of motion:

Yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cymru i warantu darpariaeth gwasanaethau mamolaeth dan arweiniad meddygon ymgynghorol mewn ysbytai cyffredinol dosbarth yn y Gogledd.

Calls upon the Welsh Government to guarantee the provision of consultant-led maternity services at district general hospitals in North Wales.

Gwelliant 5 William Graham

Amendment 5 William Graham

Ychwanegu pwynt newydd ar ddiwedd y cynnig:

Add as new point at end of motion:

Yn cydnabod pwysigrwydd mynediad prydlon at wasanaethau mamolaeth brys mewn ardaloedd gwledig.

Recognises the importance of timely access to emergency maternity services in rural areas.

Gwelliant 6 William Graham

Amendment 6 William Graham

Ychwanegu pwynt newydd ar ddiwedd y cynnig:

Add as new point at end of motion:

Yn cydnabod pwysigrwydd gwasanaethau mamolaeth a ddarperir i gleifion o Gymru gan ysbytai yn Lloegr.

Recognises the importance of maternity services provided to Welsh patients by hospitals in England.

Gwelliant 7 William Graham

Amendment 7 William Graham

Ychwanegu pwynt newydd ar ddiwedd y cynnig:

Add as new point at end of motion:

Yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cymru i gynnal a chadw llefydd ar gyfer hyfforddiant bydwreigiaeth yng Nghymru, er mwyn darparu lefel gynaliadwy o ddatblygiad proffesiynol ar gyfer y rheini sy’n gweithio yn y gwasanaethau mamolaeth yn GIG Cymru.

Calls on the Welsh Government to maintain places for midwifery training in Wales, so as to provide a sustainable level of professional development for those working within Welsh NHS maternity services.

Darren Millar: I move amendments 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7 in the name of William Graham.

Darren Millar: Cynigiaf welliannau 3, 4, 5, 6 a 7 yn enw William Graham.

I am very pleased that the Government has decided to initiate a debate on this important subject. I also put on record that I welcome the principles that have been expressed in the Minister’s ‘A Strategic Vision for Maternity Services in Wales’. Not only are high-quality maternity services essential if we are to give people the best start in life, but we also know that the latest figures show that the birth rate in Wales is booming.

Rwy’n falch iawn bod y Llywodraeth wedi penderfynu cychwyn dadl ar y pwnc pwysig hwn. Rwyf hefyd yn rhoi ar goedd fy mod yn croesawu’r egwyddorion sydd wedi eu mynegi yn ‘Gweledigaeth Strategol ar gyfer Gwasanaethau Mamolaeth yng Nghymru’ gan y Gweinidog. Nid yn unig y mae gwasanaethau mamolaeth o ansawdd uchel yn hanfodol os ydym i roi’r cychwyn gorau mewn bywyd i bobl, ond rydym hefyd yn gwybod bod y ffigurau diweddaraf yn dangos bod y gyfradd genedigaethau yng Nghymru yn ffynnu.

4.30 p.m.

Figures from the Office for National Statistics show a 2.9 per cent increase in the Welsh birth rate since 2009, and, as Elin Jones said in her contribution earlier, the number of babies born in 2010 represents a staggering 19 per cent rise on 2002. Yet, at the same time, research shows that, even for those babies born very early, the survival chances for premature babies have greatly improved.

Mae ffigurau gan y Swyddfa Ystadegau Gwladol yn dangos cynnydd yn y gyfradd genedigaethau yng Nghymru o 2.9 y cant ers 2009, ac, fel y dywedodd Elin Jones yn ei chyfraniad yn gynharach, mae nifer y babanod a anwyd yn 2010 yn cynrychioli cynnydd syfrdanol o 19 y cant ar 2002. Eto i gyd, ar yr un pryd, mae ymchwil yn dangos, hyd yn oed ar gyfer babanod a anwyd yn gynnar iawn, bod y gobaith o oroesi ar gyfer babanod cynamserol wedi gwella’n fawr.

However, paradoxically, as our birth rate reaches a 40-year high, the number of midwives in Wales is falling fast. Wales currently has 1,667 practising midwives, but there has been a 10 per cent drop between 2008 and 2010, and more worrying still are the plummeting student midwife numbers, with 123 midwifery students starting their training in 2010-11 compared with 102 in 2011-12. Of course, the Royal College of Midwives has reminded us that we have a 10 per cent gap between the number of midwives and the demand for midwives in the Welsh NHS today. Bliss—the charity for babies born too soon, too small or too sick—produced a report last December that concluded that services are overstretched and understaffed, which is leading to dangerous over-occupancy levels in neonatal units. It also warned that there is a need for a further 140 neonatal nurses in Wales, and more consultants. The hard work of NHS staff in our hospitals, right across Wales, is unquestionable, and the hours put in by health professionals along with the unyielding commitment that they show on a daily basis is exemplary. However, it is clear that maternity and neonatal services in Wales are under pressure like never before, and unless we invest in midwives and maternity and neonatal services, the system will start to buckle.

Fodd bynnag, yn baradocsaidd, wrth i’n cyfradd genedigaethau gyrraedd ei uchafbwynt mwyaf mewn 40 blynedd, mae nifer y bydwragedd yng Nghymru yn gostwng yn gyflym. Ar hyn o bryd mae gan Gymru 1,667 o fydwragedd sy’n ymarfer, ond bu gostyngiad o 10 y cant rhwng 2008 a 2010, a mwy pryderus fyth yw’r niferoedd cynyddol lai o fyfyrwyr bydwreigiaeth, gyda 123 o fyfyrwyr bydwreigiaeth yn dechrau eu hyfforddiant yn 2010-11 o gymharu â 102 o yn 2011-12. Wrth gwrs, mae Coleg Brenhinol y Bydwragedd wedi’n hatgoffa bod gennym fwlch o 10 y cant rhwng nifer y bydwragedd a’r galw am fydwragedd yn y GIG yng Nghymru heddiw. Cynhyrchodd Bliss—yr elusen babanod a anwyd yn rhy fuan, yn rhy fach neu’n rhy sâl—adroddiad fis Rhagfyr diwethaf a ddywedodd bod gwasanaethau wedi eu gorymestyn ac yn brin o staff, sy’n arwain at lefelau gorlenwi peryglus mewn unedau newyddenedigol. Rhybuddiodd hefyd bod angen 140 o nyrsys newyddenedigol arall yng Nghymru, a mwy o ymgynghorwyr. Mae gwaith caled staff y GIG yn ein hysbytai, ledled Cymru, yn ddiamheuol, ac mae’r oriau a weithir gan weithwyr iechyd proffesiynol ynghyd â’r ymrwymiad di-ildio maent yn eu ddangos o ddydd i ddydd yn ganmoladwy. Fodd bynnag, mae’n amlwg bod gwasanaethau mamolaeth a newyddenedigol yng Nghymru o dan fwy o bwysau nag erioed o’r blaen, ac oni bai ein bod yn buddsoddi mewn bydwragedd a gwasanaethau mamolaeth a newyddenedigol, bydd y system yn dechrau gwegian.

It is not going to be easy. While the NHS in England has had its budget protected, the Welsh NHS, as we all know, is facing cuts to its budget of around £1 billion over the next three years. Cuts of this scale will undoubtedly threaten front-line services and make the NHS workforce work harder still than it already is. Reviews into the provision of maternity services are under way, as we have already heard, across the country, and serious concerns have been expressed in mid Wales, west Wales and, indeed, in north Wales. As I alluded to earlier, it is not because of any prejudice towards the situation in north Wales that we have tabled an amendment in respect of their services today—it is simply because decisions are imminent in that part of the country. In fact, the Betsi Cadwaladr University Local Health Board’s review of maternity and neonatal services could see consultant-led maternity services being axed from one or more of the three main hospital sites, with existing services being replaced by a midwifery-led unit. I am very disappointed that you have not supported our amendment to protect and safeguard the future of those services. I am not the only one concerned about this; thousands of people have signed petitions to save maternity services, and online campaigns have attracted over 18,000 supporters. There is not only a public backlash against the possible downgrading of maternity services; clinicians are also warning about severe consequences if consultant-led services are removed from our hospitals. According to the British Medical Association, at least 85 per cent of women require specialist services of some sort during their pregnancy, and that could mean that around 2,000 women would deliver in and/or be transferred to another hospital if services were downgraded at one or more of the district general hospitals in north Wales. Worse than that, the BMA also predicts that there would be an increase in the perinatal mortality rate in north Wales of 25 per cent—more women and babies dying needlessly in transit to hospital. That is not something that I or anyone else in the Chamber should accept.

Nid yw’n mynd i fod yn hawdd. Er bod cyllideb y GIG yn Lloegr wedi ei ddiogelu, mae’r GIG yng Nghymru, fel y gwyddom oll, yn wynebu toriadau o tua £1 biliwn i’w gyllideb dros y dair blynedd nesaf. Bydd toriadau o’r maint hwn yn ddi-os yn peryglu gwasanaethau rheng flaen ac yn gwneud gwaith gweithlu’r GIG yn anoddach nag yw yn barod. Mae adolygiadau i ddarpariaeth gwasanaethau mamolaeth ar y gweill, fel clywsom eisoes, ar draws y wlad, a mynegwyd pryderon difrifol yn y canolbarth, y gorllewin ac, yn wir, yn y gogledd. Fel y soniais yn gynharach, nid ydym wedi cyflwyno gwelliant o ran ei wasanaethau oherwydd unrhyw ragfarn at y sefyllfa yn y gogledd heddiw—mae’n syml oherwydd penderfyniadau sydd ar fin cael eu gwneud yn y rhan honno o’r wlad. Yn wir, gallai adolygiad Bwrdd Iechyd Lleol Prifysgol Betsi Cadwaladr o wasanaethau mamolaeth a newyddenedigol olygu cael gwared ar wasanaethau mamolaeth o dan arweiniad meddygon ymgynghorol o un neu fwy o’r tri prif ysbyty, gyda’r gwasanaethau presennol yn cael eu disodli gan uned o dan arweiniad bydwragedd.Yr wyf yn dra siomedig nad ydych wedi cefnogi ein gwelliant i amddiffyn a diogelu dyfodol y gwasanaethau hynny. Nid fi yw’r unig un sy’n pryderu am hyn; mae miloedd wedi llofnodi deisebau i achub gwasanaethau mamolaeth, a denodd ymgyrchoedd ar-lein dros 18,000 o gefnogwyr. Mae adwaith gyhoeddus wedi bod yn erbyn y posibilrwydd o israddio gwasanaethau mamolaeth, ac mae clinigwyr hefyd yn rhybuddio am oblygiadau difrifol os yw ceir gwared ar wasanaethau dan arweiniad ymgynghorwyr o’n hysbytai. Yn ôl y Gymdeithas Feddygol Brydeinig, mae o leiaf 85 y cant o fenywod angen gwasanaethau arbenigol o ryw fath yn ystod eu beichiogrwydd, a allai olygu y byddai tua 2,000 o fenywod yn rhoi genedigaeth mewn a/neu gael eu trosglwyddo i ysbyty arall os byddai gwasanaethau’n cael eu hisraddio mewn un neu fwy o ysbytai cyffredinol dosbarth yn y gogledd Cymru. Yn waeth na hynny, mae’r BMA hefyd yn rhagweld y byddai cynnydd o 25 y cant yn y gyfradd marwolaethau amenedigol yn y gogledd, sef mwy o fenywod a babanod yn marw yn ddiangen wrth gael eu cludo i’r ysbyty. Nid yw hynny’n rhywbeth y dylwn i nag unrhyw un arall yn y Siambr ei dderbyn.

Of course there is a need for change; no-one is arguing that there is not. However, it has to be handled in the right way, and we must not impose urban models of healthcare on largely rural Wales. Indeed, the BMA has put forward proposals that would ensure that consultant-led services would remain in place while saving money.

Wrth gwrs, mae angen newid; nid oes neb yn dadlau nad oes. Fodd bynnag, mae’n rhaid ei wneud yn y ffordd iawn, a rhaid inni beidio gosod modelau gofal iechyd trefol ar Gymru sydd i raddau helaeth yn wledig. Yn wir, mae’r BMA wedi cyflwyno cynigion a fyddai’n sicrhau y byddai gwasanaethau dan arweiniad ymgynghorwyr yn aros yn eu lle tra’n arbed arian.

I will refer briefly to today’s announcement on the national clinical forum. I do not think that you can shirk from your responsibility for the Welsh NHS, Minister. You cannot pass the buck to a so-called independent clinical forum that will be chaired by a person who has already said that he wants—

Cyfeiriaf yn fyr at y cyhoeddiad heddiw ar y fforwm clinigol cenedlaethol. Nid wyf yn meddwl y gallwch osgoi’ch cyfrifoldeb am y GIG yng Nghymru, Weinidog. Ni allwch daflu’r baich ar yr hyn a elwir yn fforwm glinigol annibynnol a fydd yn cael ei gadeirio gan berson sydd eisoes wedi dweud ei fod eisiau—

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order. Please conclude now, Darren.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Trefn. Os gwelwch yn dda, dewch i ben nawr, Darren.

Darren Millar: He has already said that he wants consultant-led units to close. You ought to ensure, Minister, that you take responsibility for the Government’s actions.

Darren Millar: Mae eisoes wedi dweud ei fod am i unedau a arweinir gan ymgynghorwyr i gau. Dylech sicrhau, Weinidog, eich bod yn cymryd cyfrifoldeb am weithredoedd y Llywodraeth.

Gwelliant 8 Peter Black

Amendment 8 Peter Black

Ychwanegu pwynt newydd ar ddiwedd y cynnig:

Add new point at the end of motion:

Yn nodi nad yw Llywodraeth Cymru wedi cyflwyno cynllun cyflenwi terfynol ar gyfer gwasanaethau mamolaeth er mwyn ei drafod, ac yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cymru i gyflwyno cynllun terfynol ar sut y bydd yn gweithredu ei gweledigaeth ar gyfer gwasanaethau mamolaeth, yn cynnwys nodau clir a chanlyniadau mesuradwy, er mwyn ei drafod.

Notes that the Welsh Government has not brought forward a final delivery plan on maternity services for debate and calls on it to bring forward, for debate, a final plan on how it will implement its vision for maternity services, including clear aims and measurable outcomes.

Gwelliant 9 Peter Black

Amendment 9 Peter Black

Ychwanegu pwynt newydd ar ddiwedd y cynnig:

Add new point at the end of motion:

Yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cymru i:

Calls on the Welsh Government to:

a) Amlinellu’r ffordd y mae’n bwriadu dal Byrddau Iechyd Lleol i gyfrif a’r mesurau y bydd yn eu cymryd i sicrhau bod BILl yn cyrraedd targedau mamolaeth yn y dyfodol; a

a) Outline the ways it intends to hold Local Health Boards to account and measures it will take to ensure the LHBs hit maternity targets in the future; and

b) Gweithio gyda BILl wrth recriwtio a chadw staff meddygol fel bod pob BILl:

b) Work with LHBs in the recruitment and retention of medical staff so that all LHBs:

(i) bodloni’r safon Birthrate plus ar gyfer trefniadau staffio bydwragedd;

(i) meet the Birthrate plus standard for midwifery staffing;

(ii) yn cyflawni’r lefelau staffio a argymhellir gan Goleg Brenhinol y Nyrsys ar gyfer nyrsio gynaecolegol; a

(ii) meet RCN recommended staffing levels for gynaecological nursing; and

(iii) yn meddu ar wasanaeth mamolaeth sy’n bodloni’r safonau ansawdd cenedlaethol drwy’r amser.

(iii) have a maternity service that meets the national quality standards at all times.

Eluned Parrott: I move amendments 8 and 9 in the name of Peter Black.

Eluned Parrott: Cynigiaf welliannau 8 a 9 yn enw Peter Black.

Having had two children in the Welsh NHS maternity services, I am afraid that this issue is close to my heart. I hear you, Minister, when you say that 85 per cent of women are happy with the service that they receive. However, I am sorry to tell you that I am in the other 15 per cent. Yesterday, the Welsh Government issued its guidance and its vision for maternity services, yet the motion that has been proposed is bland and aimless, giving the Assembly no confidence that actions will be taken as a result of today’s debate. That is why we have tabled our amendment 8.

Ar ôl cael dau o blant yng ngwasanaethau mamolaeth y GIG yng Nghymru, mae’r mater hwn yn un agos at fy nghalon. Rwy’n eich clywed chi, Weinidog, pan ddywedwch fod 85 y cant o fenywod yn hapus gyda’r gwasanaeth maent yn ei dderbyn. Fodd bynnag, mae’n ddrwg gen i ddweud wrthych fy mod i yn y 15 y cant arall. Ddoe, cyhoeddodd Llywodraeth Cymru ei chanllawiau a’i gweledigaeth ar gyfer gwasanaethau mamolaeth, ond mae’r cynnig a gynigiwyd yn ddiddrwg didda a diamcan, ac nid yw’n rhoi unrhyw hyder i’r Cynulliad y bydd camau yn cael eu cymryd o ganlyniad i ddadl heddiw. Dyna pam yr ydym wedi cyflwyno ein gwelliant 8.

For years, the future of the health service has been debated in the Chamber, and I have watched those debates from out there in the real world. Yet, what the Welsh public really needs from you, Minister, is a firm commitment that things will change and a clear plan for how that will happen. Wales once had a lower infant mortality rate than England and Scotland, but now it has the highest. Since 2005, we have seen the level of stillbirths and perinatal and neonatal deaths rise, but there has been no effective action to stop it. Every week in Wales, more than 10 babies die within the first month of their life. However, in the past two years, the number of midwives working in Wales has fallen by nearly 10 per cent. The shortage of midwives in Wales reached an estimated 136 individuals this year, yet the number of places available on midwifery courses in our universities—a figure that is set by the Government through its bursaries—is falling.

Am flynyddoedd, mae dyfodol y gwasanaeth iechyd wedi cael ei drafod yn y Siambr, ac yr wyf wedi gwylio’r dadleuon hynny o’r tu allan allan yn y byd go iawn. Eto i gyd, yr hyn y mae’r cyhoedd yng Nghymru ei wir angen gennych, Weinidog, yw ymrwymiad cadarn y bydd pethau’n newid a chynllun clir ar gyfer sut y bydd hynny’n digwydd. Roedd gan Gymru unwaith gyfradd marwolaethau babanod is na Lloegr a’r Alban, ond bellach mae ganddo’r uchaf. Ers 2005, gwelsom farw-enedigaethau a marwolaethau amenedigol a newydd-anedig yn codi, ond ni chymerwyd unrhyw gamau effeithiol i’w atal. Bob wythnos yng Nghymru, mae mwy na 10 babi yn marw ym mis cyntaf eu bywydau. Fodd bynnag, yn y ddwy flynedd diwethaf, mae nifer y bydwragedd sy’n gweithio yng Nghymru wedi gostwng bron i 10 y cant. Cyrhaeddodd prinder bydwragedd yng Nghymru tua 136 o unigolion y flwyddyn hon, ac eto mae nifer y lleoedd ar gael ar gyrsiau bydwreigiaeth yn ein prifysgolion—ffigur a osodir gan y Llywodraeth drwy ei fwrsarїau—yn gostwng.

I spoke to Swansea University, which said that it received applications from 29 well-qualified individuals for every place on its midwifery course last year. Cardiff University received 750 applications, but could only accept 36. Therefore, we are turning away hundreds of well-qualified, motivated and talented young people every year. These are people who could be saving lives and who could be improving the safety record of our maternity service; instead, they are being forced into different career choices. It is lamentable that, in these desperate times, it is nearly four times easier to be accepted to study medicine at Oxford University than it is to get into midwifery anywhere in Wales. Is that not shocking? You say, Minister, that there is £10,000 for a midwifery chair. With on-costs and pension contributions, I would be surprised if that would cover half a day a week for a professor in a Welsh university. It is not enough. It would have been better to spend that money on a bursary for one more midwife.

Siaradais â Phrifysgol Abertawe, a ddywedodd ei fod wedi derbyn 29 o geisiadau gan unigolion â chymwysterau da am bob lle ar ei gwrs bydwreigiaeth y llynedd. Derbyniodd Prifysgol Caerdydd 750 o geisiadau, ond dim ond 36 y gallai dderbyn. Felly, bob blwyddyn yr ydym yn troi ymaith gannoedd o bobl ifanc dalentog â chymwysterau da sy’n llawn cymhelliant. Gallai’r rhain fod yn achub bywydau ac yn gwella record diogelwch ein gwasanaeth mamolaeth; yn hytrach, fe’u gorfodir i wneud dewisiadau gyrfa gwahanol. Mae’n druenus, yn y cyfnod argyfyngus hwn, ei bod hi bron bedair gwaith yn haws i gael eich derbyn i astudio meddygaeth ym Mhrifysgol Rhydychen nag yw hi i fynd i mewn i fydwreigiaeth unrhyw le yng Nghymru. Onid yw hynny’n syfrdanol? Yr ydych yn dweud, Weinidog, bod £10,000 ar gyfer cadair bydwreigiaeth. Gydag argostau a chyfraniadau pensiwn, byddwn yn synnu pe bai hynny’n cwmpasu hanner diwrnod yr wythnos i athro mewn prifysgol yng Nghymru. Nid yw’n ddigon. Byddai wedi bod yn well gwario’r arian hwnnw ar fwrsariaeth i fydwraig arall.

Given the shortages, you would think that, once those people have graduated, they would be guaranteed a job, but you would be wrong. Of the 16 people who graduated from the midwifery course at Swansea University this summer, only two found a job in Wales. That is happening at the same time as we hear of maternity units closing their doors because there are not enough staff to run them, and when we are throwing money away on agency fees. To me, that demonstrates an abject failure in workforce planning in the NHS in Wales. The issue of staffing is not only one of cost but one of safety. Permanent staffing could save the Welsh NHS money, but, critically, it could improve outcomes for our mothers and babies. When things went wrong for me and my unborn son, it became frighteningly clear that there simply were not enough staff. We were trapped in the world’s least funny Keystone Kops film, watching panicked staff running around trying to find specialists. That is the experience that one has of the maternity service in Wales today.

O ystyried y prinder, fe dybiech, unwaith bod y bobl hynny wedi graddio, y byddai swydd bendant iddynt, ond byddech yn anghywir. O’r 16 o bobl a raddiodd o’r cwrs bydwreigiaeth ym Mhrifysgol Abertawe yr haf yma, dim ond dau ddaeth o hyd i swydd yng Nghymru. Mae hynny’n digwydd ar yr un pryd ag y clywn am unedau mamolaeth yn cau eu drysau am nad oes digon o staff i’w rhedeg, a phan rydym yn taflu arian i ffwrdd ar ffїoedd asiantaeth. I mi, mae hynny’n dangos methiant llwyr o ran cynllunio gweithlu’r GIG yng Nghymru. Mae staffio nid yn unig yn fater o gost ond hefyd o ddiogelwch. Gallai staff parhaol arbed arian i’r GIG yng Nghymru, ond, yn bwysig iawn, gallai wella canlyniadau i’n mamau a babanod. Pan aeth pethau o chwith i mi a fy mab heb ei eni, daeth yn ddychrynllyd o amlwg nad oedd digon o staff. Cawsom ein dal yn y ffilm Keystone Kops lleiaf doniol erioed, yn gwylio staff mewn panig yn rhedeg o gwmpas yn trio dod o hyd i arbenigwyr. Dyna’r profiad a gaiff rhywun o’r gwasanaeth mamolaeth yng Nghymru heddiw.

Could the Minister, in summing up, clarify how she intends to meet the Birthrate Plus staffing levels given that fewer training places are available each year and that there are no vacancies for additional staff in our hospitals? I welcome the fact that the Government has issued some sort of strategy; however, while it offers local health boards plenty of targets, it provides no indication of how the Government will support them or of the consequences of not meeting those targets. That is why we have tabled our amendment 9: there must be clarity on how maternity services in Wales will get better. Therefore, I ask the Minister to outline today the steps that she intends to take to help local health boards to realise those targets, and the remedies that she will implement if local health boards fail to reach them.

A wnaiff y Gweinidog, wrth grynhoi, egluro sut y mae’n bwriadu cwrdd â lefelau staff Birthrate Plus gan fod llai o leoedd hyfforddi ar gael bob blwyddyn ac nid oes swyddi gwag ar gyfer staff ychwanegol yn ein hysbytai? Croesawaf y ffaith fod y Llywodraeth wedi cyhoeddi rhyw fath o strategaeth; fodd bynnag, er ei fod yn cynnig digon o dargedau i fyrddau iechyd lleol, nid yw’n cynnig unrhyw syniad o sut y bydd y Llywodraeth yn eu cefnogi, na’r goblygiadau o beidio â bodloni’r targedau hynny. Dyna pam yr ydym wedi cyflwyno ein gwelliant 9: rhaid cael eglurder am sut y bydd gwasanaethau mamolaeth yng Nghymru yn gwella. Felly, gofynnaf i’r Gweinidog amlinellu heddiw y camau y mae’n bwriadu eu cymryd i helpu byrddau iechyd lleol i wireddu’r targedau hynny, a’r atebion y bydd yn eu gweithredu os bydd byrddau iechyd lleol yn methu â’u cyrraedd.

The motion states that

Mae’r cynnig yn nodi y

‘pregnancy and childbirth should be a safe, fulfilling life enhancing experience’.

‘dylai beichiogrwydd a genedigaeth fod yn, profiad diogel, boddhaus, sy’n gwella bywyd.

However, it does not say what will be done to make that happen. Unless we in the Chamber insist that information like that is included in our debates, we will be letting parents and babies down. Therefore, I commend amendments 8 and 9 to you and ask you to support them.

Fodd bynnag, nid yw’n dweud beth fydd yn cael ei wneud er mwyn i hynny ddigwydd. Oni bai ein bod yn y Siambr yn mynnu bod gwybodaeth fel yna yn cael ei chynnwys yn ein dadleuon, byddwn yn gadael rhieni a babanod i lawr. Felly, yr wyf yn cymeradwyo gwelliannau 8 a 9 i chi ac yn gofyn i chi i’w cefnogi.

Lynne Neagle: I am really pleased that we are debating maternity services during the first Plenary meeting of a new Assembly term. The way in which we care for mothers and babies throughout pregnancy, childbirth and beyond is vital. Not only is it a test of our NHS, midwives, doctors, clinicians, and all of us as politicians, it should also be a vital measure of progress in any decent society. I want to start by giving a cautious welcome to the publication of the Welsh Government’s new strategy. I am cautious because 12 years as an AM has taught me that rhetoric is not always matched with action on the ground and because, in Gwent, there have been serious problems with maternity units in recent years.

Lynne Neagle: Yr wyf yn hynod o falch ein bod yn trafod gwasanaethau mamolaeth yn ystod Cyfarfod Llawn cyntaf tymor y Cynulliad newydd. Mae’r ffordd yr ydym yn gofalu am famau a babanod drwy gydol beichiogrwydd, genedigaeth a thu hwnt yn hanfodol. Mae’n brawf nid yn unig o’n GIG, bydwragedd, meddygon, clinigwyr, a phob un ohonom fel gwleidyddion, ond dylai hefyd fod yn fesur hanfodol o gynnydd mewn unrhyw gymdeithas weddus. Rwyf am ddechrau drwy roi croeso gofalus i gyhoeddi strategaeth newydd Llywodraeth Cymru. Yr wyf yn bod yn ofalus oherwydd bod 12 mlynedd fel AC wedi dysgu i mi nad yw rhethreg yn cyd-fynd bob amser â gweithredu ar lawr gwlad ac oherwydd, yng Ngwent, cafwyd problemau difrifol gydag unedau mamolaeth yn y blynyddoedd diwethaf.

As I saw for myself during a recent visit to the maternity unit at the Royal Gwent Hospital, a tremendous amount of work has been done over the last few years to turn things around. While there is always a danger that too much of a focus on the public health agenda can act as a distraction from our mission to improve services, broadly speaking I think that our new vision is the right one, although factors such as deprivation need to be given greater emphasis as we shape maternity services for the future.

Fel y gwelais fy hun yn ystod ymweliad diweddar â’r uned famolaeth yn Ysbyty Brenhinol Gwent, gwnaed llawer iawn o waith dros y blynyddoedd diwethaf i droi pethau o gwmpas. Er bod perygl cyson y gall gormod o ffocws ar yr agenda iechyd cyhoeddus dynnu sylw oddi wrth ein cenhadaeth i wella gwasanaethau, yn fras, rwyf yn meddwl mai ein gweledigaeth newydd yw’r un gywir, er bod angen mwy o bwyslais ar ffactorau fel amddifadedd wrth i ni lunio gwasanaethau mamolaeth ar gyfer y dyfodol.

It is also clear that significant progress has been made since the original document was put out to consultation in January. I shared many of the concerns that were expressed then by the Royal College of Midwives and others that this was another strategy that was strong on principles but light on practicalities. However, there is a much clearer focus in the new document on what we want services to look like in the future, and I am pleased that at its heart is the recognition that we should try to shape maternity services to meet the needs of women and their babies and that we should seek to properly engage with the views of mothers who have recent experience of the service.

Mae hefyd yn amlwg bod cynnydd sylweddol wedi’i wneud ers i’r ddogfen wreiddiol gael ei chyhoeddi er mwyn ymgynghori arni ym mis Ionawr. Yr wyf yn rhannu llawer o’r pryderon a fynegwyd bryd hynny gan Goleg Brenhinol y Bydwragedd a phobl eraill fod hon yn strategaeth arall a oedd llawn egwyddorion, ond brin ar agweddau ymarferol. Fodd bynnag, mae ffocws llawer cliriach yn y ddogfen newydd ar sut yr ydym am i wasanaethau edrych yn y dyfodol, ac rwy’n falch bod cydnabyddiaeth wrth galon y ddogfen y dylem geisio llunio gwasanaethau mamolaeth i ddiwallu anghenion menywod a’u babanod ac y dylem geisio ymgysylltu’n briodol â barn mamau sydd â phrofiad diweddar o’r gwasanaeth.

In my work as a constituency AM, I have always found new mums to be one of the hardest to reach groups in the community. Understandably, given the pressures of bringing up a new-born baby, even when a mother has had a difficult time during pregnancy or childbirth, they are often the least likely to seek advice, to complain to the LHB or to contact their AM.  Therefore, to prepare for this debate, I have been working closely with the local community health council, which has surveyed mothers at several mother and baby clinics in Torfaen over the summer, and I have also asked residents to get in touch to express their views and concerns.

Yn fy ngwaith fel AC etholaeth, yr wyf wastad wedi canfod mai mamau newydd yw un o’r grwpiau anoddaf eu cyrraedd yn y gymuned. Yn ddealladwy, o ystyried y pwysau o fagu babi newydd-anedig, hyd yn oed pan mae mam wedi cael amser anodd yn ystod beichiogrwydd neu enedigaeth, yn aml nhw yw’r lleiaf tebygol o geisio cyngor, i gwyno i’r bwrdd iechyd lleol, neu i gysylltu â’u AC.  Felly, i baratoi ar gyfer y ddadl hon, bûm yn gweithio’n agos gyda’r cyngor iechyd cymuned lleol, sydd wedi cynnal arolwg o famau mewn nifer o glinigau mam a’r babi yn Nhorfaen dros yr haf, ac yr wyf hefyd wedi gofyn i drigolion i gysylltu i fynegi eu barn a’u pryderon.

I was not surprised that the feedback was very positive, with the vast majority of mothers describing their experience as either ‘good’ or ‘excellent’. We know that there are midwives, doctors and clinicians working wonders in the NHS on a daily basis. However, we also have to be frank and face the fact that women often have quite low expectations, and it was clear from the survey that a number of long-standing issues remain unaddressed. For example, many of the mums we spoke to still do not feel that they were given a real choice regarding where they gave birth, with 35 per cent of those interviewed in Cwmbrân stating that they had no choice at all about where to deliver their baby. This issue has been highlighted many times over the years in numerous reports. While I recognise that there will always be local differences in services and variations with regard to the way in which clinicians assess the risks associated with different deliveries, this should not be a barrier preventing women making informed choices regarding where to have their child.

Doeddwn i ddim yn synnu bod yr adborth yn gadarnhaol iawn, gyda’r rhan fwyaf o famau yn disgrifio eu profiad fel un ‘da’ neu ‘ardderchog’. Gwyddom bod bydwragedd, meddygon a chlinigwyr yn gwneud rhyfeddodau yn y GIG bob dydd. Fodd bynnag, rhaid i ni hefyd fod yn agored a wynebu’r ffaith fod gan ferched ddisgwyliadau eithaf isel yn aml, ac yr oedd yn amlwg o’r arolwg bod nifer o broblemau hirsefydlog yn parhau heb eu datrys. Er enghraifft, mae llawer o’r mamau y siaradwyd â hwy yn dal i deimlo nad ydynt yn cael dewis go iawn ynghylch ble maent yn rhoi genedigaeth, gyda 35 y cant o’r rhai a holwyd yng Nghwmbrân yn datgan nad oedd ganddynt unrhyw ddewis o gwbl ble i eni eu baban. Mae’r mater hwn wedi cael ei amlygu sawl gwaith dros y blynyddoedd mewn sawl adroddiad. Er fy mod yn cydnabod y bydd bob amser wahaniaethau lleol mewn gwasanaethau ac amrywiadau o ran y ffordd y mae clinigwyr yn asesu’r risgiau sy’n gysylltiedig â gwahanol enedigaethau, ni ddylai hyn fod yn rhwystr sy’n atal menywod rhag gwneud dewisiadau hyddysg am ble i gael eu plentyn.

Mothers also clearly felt that access and visiting times for fathers at hospital were too restrictive. While I recognise that this is a tricky balance to strike and I understand that the safety and wellbeing of mothers should always be the primary concern, the emphasis should be on accommodating the wishes of the mother and recognising the vital role of the father. Unless it is clear that having fathers present could seriously jeopardise the wellbeing of others, they should not be prevented from doing so for the convenience of the hospital. Not only is there an equalities issue at stake here, more fundamentally we should be trying to normalise the hospital experience as much as possible and the restrictions on visiting times for dads undermine this.

Roedd mamau hefyd yn teimlo’n glir fod mynediad ac amserau ymweld i dadau yn yr ysbyty yn rhy gyfyngedig. Er fy mod yn cydnabod bod hwn yn gydbwysedd anodd i’w daro ac yr wyf yn deall mai diogelwch a lles mamau ddylai fod yn ystyriaeth sylfaenol, dylai’r pwyslais fod ar gwrdd â dymuniadau’r fam a chydnabod rôl hanfodol y tad. Oni bai ei bod yn amlwg y gallai cael tadau yn bresennol beryglu lles pobl eraill o ddifrif, ni ddylid eu hatal rhag gwneud hynny er hwylustod yr ysbyty. Nid yn unig bod problem cydraddoldeb yn y fantol yma, yn fwy sylfaenol dylem fod yn ceisio normaleiddio’r profiad ysbyty gymaint ag y bo modd ac mae’r cyfyngiadau ar amseroedd ymweld i dadau yn tanseilio hyn.

Finally, I want to highlight some important concerns that have been raised with me by the NSPCC, which, as you know, has expressed concern that the maternity strategy does not make any explicit reference to safeguarding children. As you will be aware, Minister, as of March this year, there were 345 children under the age of 1 on the at-risk register, and we know that maternity services have a critical role to play in efforts to prevent future mistreatment. Therefore, I would be grateful for any assurances you can offer me today that these issues will be addressed as you take forward the implementation of this strategy.

Yn olaf, yr wyf am dynnu sylw at rai pryderon pwysig a godwyd gyda mi gan yr NSPCC, sydd, fel y gwyddoch, wedi mynegi pryder nad yw’r strategaeth mamolaeth yn cyfeirio’n benodol at ddiogelu plant. Fel y gwyddoch, Weinidog, o fis Mawrth eleni, roedd 345 o blant o dan 1 oed ar y gofrestr mewn perygl, ac rydym yn gwybod bod gwasanaethau mamolaeth rôl hanfodol i’w chwarae o ran ymdrechion i atal camdriniaeth yn y dyfodol. Felly, byddaf yn ddiolchgar am unrhyw sicrwydd y gallwch gynnig imi heddiw y bydd sylw’n cael ei roi i’r materion hyn wrth i chi fynd ati i ddatblygu gweithrediad y strategaeth hon.

4.45 p.m.

Antoinette Sandbach: I thank the Minister for the fact that the Government will support amendment 5 in particular, which relates to access to emergency maternity services in rural areas. As we know, those services are not needed when things are going right. They are needed when things are going wrong.

Antoinette Sandbach: Diolch i’r Gweinidog am y ffaith y bydd y Llywodraeth yn cefnogi gwelliant 5 yn benodol, sy’n ymwneud â mynediad i wasanaethau mamolaeth brys mewn ardaloedd gwledig. Fel y gwyddom, nid oes angen y gwasanaethau hynny pan mae pethau’n mynd yn iawn. Mae eu hangen pan fydd pethau’n mynd o’i le.

Unfortunately, I am one of the statistics quoted by Eluned Parrott. I had to wait for more than 30 minutes and do mouth-to-mouth resuscitation and heart massage on my baby before an ambulance arrived. I had to sit in the ambulance for the 30 minutes it took to get back to the hospital. By that stage, that critical hour had passed. I do not want any other mother in Wales to have to go through what I went through.

Yn anffodus, rwyf i’n un o’r ystadegau a ddyfynnwyd gan Eluned Parrott. Roedd yn rhaid imi aros am fwy na 30 munud a gwneud dadebru drwy’r geg a thylino calon fy mabi cyn i ambiwlans gyrraedd. Roedd yn rhaid imi eistedd yn yr ambiwlans am y 30 munud a gymerodd i fynd yn ôl i’r ysbyty. Erbyn hynny, roedd yr awr dyngedfennol honno wedi pasio. Nid wyf am i unrhyw fam arall yng Nghymru fynd drwy’r hyn yr euthum drwyddo.

I am sorry, I am upset, but it is vital that, in any reorganisation, access to services is secured, particularly for the 11 per cent of people in rural areas who do not have access to transport—they do not have cars; they rely on ambulances or friends or neighbours to get them to hospital. It has been shown that it is the most deprived who will suffer most. They are not able to climb into their car and drive in an emergency. It is for that reason in particular that, in north Wales, the district general hospitals are located 35 miles apart. They are located 35 miles apart so that they can be reached by people in rural areas.

Mae’n ddrwg gennyf, yr wyf wedi digio, ond mae’n hollbwysig, mewn unrhyw ad-drefnu, fod mynediad i wasanaethau’n cael ei sicrhau, yn enwedig i’r 11 y cant o bobl mewn ardaloedd gwledig nad oes ganddynt fynediad i drafnidiaeth—nid oes ganddynt geir; maent yn dibynnu ar ambiwlansys neu ffrindiau neu gymdogion i’w cludo i’r ysbyty. Dangoswyd mai’r mwyaf difreintiedig a fydd yn dioddef fwyaf. Nid ydynt yn gallu neidio i mewn i’w ceir a gyrru mewn argyfwng. Oherwydd y rheswm hwnnw’n benodol, dyna pam bod ysbytai cyffredinol dosbarth yn y gogledd wedi’u lleoli 35 milltir oddi wrth ei gilydd. Maent wedi’u lleoli 35 milltir ar wahân fel y gellir eu cyrraedd gan bobl mewn ardaloedd gwledig.

I have read again today the rural health plan—I have read it about three times. I know that, in the last Assembly term, the Minister gave a commitment that she would stick to the plan, but the rural health plan makes little if any mention of rural maternity services. My experience, from talking to my midwives in 2009, was that they were overstretched and that the then health boards were not advertising for posts despite the fact that there were clearly eight vacancies or a requirement for eight midwives. The statistic of a fall in the number of midwives by 126—more than one midwife every week—has a particular impact on rural areas. I do not disagree that there is a need for improvement in services. Personally, I find it amazing that, having driven a half an hour to access my consultant, which was fine, I had to sit for two hours in the waiting room at the hospital before I could see him. There were many other mothers with me going through the same experience.

Yr wyf wedi darllen y cynllun iechyd gwledig eto heddiw—rwyf wedi ei ddarllen tua thair gwaith. Gwn, yn nhymor diwethaf y Cynulliad, y rhoddodd y Gweinidog ymrwymiad y byddai hi’n cadw at y cynllun, ond nid yw’r cynllun iechyd gwledig yn sôn fawr ddim am wasanaethau mamolaeth gwledig. Fy mhrofiad i, o siarad â’m bydwraig yn 2009, oedd eu bod dan bwysau ac nad oedd y byrddau iechyd ar y pryd yn hysbysebu am swyddi er ei fod yn amlwg bod wyth swydd wag neu ofyn am wyth bydwraig. Mae’r ystadegyn sy’n dweud bod cwymp o 126 yn nifer y bydwragedd—mwy nag un fydwraig bob wythnos—yn cael effaith benodol ar ardaloedd gwledig. Nid wyf yn anghytuno bod angen gwelliant mewn gwasanaethau. Yn bersonol, roeddwn ei chael yn anhygoel, ar ôl gyrru am hanner awr i weld fy ymgynghorydd, a oedd yn iawn, fy mod yn gorfod eistedd am ddwy awr yn ystafell aros yr ysbyty cyn imi allu ei weld. Roedd llawer o famau eraill gyda mi yn mynd drwy’r un profiad.

Clearly, there is room for improvement, but it is vital that mothers’ and children’s lives are not put at risk through the downgrading of consultant-led services. Given the extent of rurality in Wales, it is particularly important that your consultants consider the issues of rural provision. I, like many people, am shocked by the figures quoted by the Stillbirth and Neonatal Death Charity, Sands, which show that, in the UK, every day, 11 babies are stillborn and six are born who will die before they are 28 days old. Those figures were quoted by Eluned Parrott and extrapolated to Wales, showing that the figure is 10 a week. Every week, the parents of 10 babies go through what I went through, and that is too many. It is too many for a twenty-first century health service.

Yn amlwg, mae lle i wella, ond mae’n hollbwysig nad yw bywydau mamau a phlant yn cael eu rhoi mewn perygl drwy israddio gwasanaethau dan arweiniad ymgynghorwyr. O ystyried pa mor wledig yw Cymru, mae’n arbennig o bwysig bod eich ymgynghorwyr yn ystyried darpariaeth wledig. Yr wyf i, fel nifer o bobl, wedi fy syfrdanu gan y ffigurau a ddyfynnwyd gan yr elusen marw-enedigaeth a marwolaeth newyddenedigol, Sands, sy’n dangos bod 11 o fabanod yn farw-anedig a chwech yn cael eu geni a fydd yn marw cyn eu bod yn 28 diwrnod oed bob dydd yn y DU. Dyfynnwyd y ffigurau hynny gan Eluned Parrott a’u hallosod i Gymru, yn dangos mai’r ffigur yw 10 bob wythnos. Bob wythnos, mae rhieni 10 o fabanod yn mynd trwy’r hyn yr euthum drwyddo, ac mae hynny’n ormod. Mae’n ormod i wasanaeth iechyd yn yr unfed ganrif ar hugain.

Ann Jones: We have talked a lot about statistics today and it is good that we hear the human stories behind the statistics. I give Antoinette credit for that; it must have been very painful. I will, however, put a few more statistics into the pot. Ninety thousand people live within a six-mile radius of the district general hospital known as Ysbyty Glan Clwyd, so its maternity unit is very busy. The district general hospital is very busy as well. Of the 2,300 births at Glan Clwyd hospital, 737 were caesarean sections. Most of those, although not all, were emergency caesarean sections. Forty-five per cent of all births were assisted, which is 7 per cent above the Welsh average. I also want you to note that women in the 20 per cent most deprived areas are 60 per cent more likely to miscarry than those in the 20 per cent least deprived areas. Unfortunately, recent index of multiple deprivation figures tell us that, in Rhyl West, we still have the most deprived community in Wales, and the health index shows startling health inequalities for those communities.

Ann Jones: Yr ydym wedi sôn llawer am ystadegau heddiw ac mae’n dda ein bod yn clywed y straeon dynol y tu ôl i’r ystadegau. Rwy’n canmol Antoinette am hynny; mae’n rhaid ei fod wedi bod yn boenus iawn. Rhoddaf, fodd bynnag, ychydig mwy o ystadegau yn y pair. Mae 90,000 o bobl yn byw o fewn chwe milltir i’r ysbyty cyffredinol dosbarth a elwir yn Ysbyty Glan Clwyd, felly mae ei uned mamolaeth yn brysur iawn. Mae’r ysbyty cyffredinol dosbarth yn brysur iawn hefyd. O’r 2,300 o enedigaethau yn Ysbyty Glan Clwyd, roedd 737 ohonynt yn doriadau cesaraidd. Roedd y rhan fwyaf o’r rheini, er nad pob un, yn doriadau cesaraidd brys. Roedd 45 y cant o enedigaethau wedi’u cynorthwyo, 7 y cant uwchlaw’r cyfartaledd Cymreig. Rwyf hefyd am ichi nodi bod menywod yn yr 20 y cant o ardaloedd mwyaf difreintiedig yn 60 y cant fwy tebygol o erthylu na’r rhai yn yr 20 y cant o ardaloedd lleiaf difreintiedig. Yn anffodus, mae ffigurau diweddar y mynegai o amddifadedd lluosog yn dweud wrthym, yng ngorllewin Rhyl, fod dal gennym y gymuned fwyaf difreintiedig yng Nghymru, ac mae’r mynegai iechyd yn dangos anghydraddoldebau iechyd brawychus ar gyfer y cymunedau hynny.

Talking to residents in my area, like most Assembly Members do, I met a young pregnant woman who looked about 26 weeks into term and she told me that she was yet to have a scan. That is another issue that needs to be looked at. The immediate job for us is to ensure that she gets attention. In a hard-to-reach area she was not aware of the possibility of not having a consultant-led caesarean section at Glan Clwyd Hospital or any other hospital. So, the immediate job for us is to ensure that the best maternity services are available for any community, because the facts tell us that where they are needed is probably where there are health inequalities.

Wrth siarad â thrigolion yn fy ardal, fel y mae’r rhan fwyaf o Aelodau Cynulliad yn ei wneud, cyfarfûm â menyw feichiog ifanc a oedd yn edrych tua 26 wythnos i mewn i’w thymor a dywedodd wrthyf ei bod eto i gael sgan. Mae hwnnw’n fater arall y mae angen edrych arno. Y gwaith brys i ni yw sicrhau ei bod hi’n cael sylw. Mewn ardal anodd ei chyrraedd ni wyddai am y posibilrwydd o beidio â chael toriad cesaraidd dan arweiniad ymgynghorwr yn Ysbyty Glan Clwyd neu unrhyw ysbyty arall. Felly, y gwaith brys i ni yw sicrhau bod y gwasanaethau mamolaeth gorau ar gael ar gyfer unrhyw gymuned, oherwydd mae’r ffeithiau yn dweud wrthym mai’r lle mae eu hangen, mae’n debyg, yw lle mae anghydraddoldebau iechyd.

The review of maternity services in north Wales must be responsive to the public—Darren Millar has mentioned the Facebook campaign and the petitions—and that means that the health board has to reach out in a robust way. Family life is very busy, and I am worried that a conventional review will bypass too many families and mums-to-be. I have offered to accompany officials on door-knocking sessions in the hardest-to-reach part of Rhyl to get the views of the people. Their response is, ‘We are not changing services, we are merely reviewing them, and so we do not have to have a consultation’. However, as the Minister said in the statement when she announced this strategy, health boards need to work with communities as they plan changes. I could not agree more with that, and it means that they must get out and talk to those hard-to-reach people.

Mae’n rhaid i’r adolygiad o wasanaethau mamolaeth yn y gogledd fod yn ymatebol i’r cyhoedd—mae Darren Millar wedi sôn am yr ymgyrch Facebook a’r deisebau—ac mae hynny’n golygu bod yn rhaid i’r bwrdd iechyd ymestyn allan mewn ffordd gadarn. Mae bywyd teuluol yn brysur iawn, ac yr wyf yn bryderus y bydd adolygiad confensiynol yn anwybyddu gormod o deuluoedd a darpar famau. Yr wyf wedi cynnig mynd gyda swyddogion ar sesiynau curo drysau yn y rhan anoddaf ei chyrraedd yn y Rhyl i gael barn y bobl. Eu hymateb yw, ‘Nid ydym yn newid gwasanaethau, dim ond yn eu hadolygu, felly nid oes rhaid inni gael ymgynghoriad’. Fodd bynnag, fel y dywedodd y Gweinidog yn y datganiad pan gyhoeddodd y strategaeth hon, mae angen i fyrddau iechyd weithio gyda chymunedau wrth iddynt gynllunio newidiadau. Yr wyf yn cytuno’n llwyr â hynny, ac mae’n golygu bod rhaid iddynt fynd allan a siarad â’r bobl hynny sy’n anodd eu cyrraedd.

The people who I have spoken to have pointed to the obvious problems around transport should Ysbyty Glan Clwyd not offer consultant-led services in the future. Anyone in north Wales knows that the A55 is a very busy road with more than its fair share of problems. If you add to that the holiday traffic and then try to go from somewhere in Rhyl to Bangor or to Wrexham via the A55 with a woman in labour having to go for an emergency intervention, it just does not make sense. Then you have to think about the woman whom I met who had not had a scan at 26 weeks. She thought that she was going to be okay, so she would turn up at the doors of the local hospital expecting to be seen. If she presented with a medical emergency, she might have to travel some 35 miles down the A55 and get stuck in holiday traffic. I would pay tribute to the ambulance services, which would get through, but the devastation to that woman and her baby would be dramatic.

Mae’r bobl yr wyf wedi siarad â hwy wedi tynnu sylw at y problemau amlwg ynghylch trafnidiaeth os na fyddai Ysbyty Glan Clwyd yn cynnig gwasanaethau dan arweiniad ymgynghorwyr yn y dyfodol. Mae unrhyw un yn y gogledd yn gwybod bod yr A55 yn ffordd brysur iawn gyda mwy na’i siâr o’i phroblemau. Os ydych yn ychwanegu at hynny’r traffig yn y gwyliau ac yna’n ceisio mynd o rywle yn y Rhyl i Fangor neu i Wrecsam drwy’r A55 gyda gwraig ar esgor sy’n gorfod mynd am ymyriad brys, nid yw’n gwneud synnwyr. Yna, mae’n rhaid i chi feddwl am y fenyw y cyfarfûm â hi na chafodd sgan 26 wythnos. Roedd hi’n meddwl ei bod yn mynd i fod yn iawn, felly byddai hi’n troi i fyny wrth ddrysau’r ysbyty lleol yn disgwyl cael ei gweld. Pe bai’n ymddangos gydag argyfwng meddygol, gallai hi fod wedi teithio rhyw 35 milltir i lawr yr A55 a mynd yn sownd yn nhraffig y gwyliau. Talaf deyrnged i’r gwasanaethau ambiwlans, a fyddai’n cael mynediad, ond byddai’r difrod i’r ferch honno a’i baban yn ddramatig.

We know that most healthy women can deliver safely at a midwife-led unit with experienced staff. That is right, and the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists have said so. However, in giving their support to that, the experts say that we must offer 24-hour support for complex pregnancies, with every possible intervention at hand.

Gwyddom y gall y rhan fwyaf o fenywod iach roi genedigaeth yn ddiogel mewn uned dan arweiniad bydwragedd gyda staff profiadol. Mae hynny’n iawn, ac mae Coleg Brenhinol yr Obstetryddion a Gynaecolegwyr wedi dweud hynny. Fodd bynnag, wrth roi eu cefnogaeth i hynny, mae’r arbenigwyr yn ddweud bod yn rhaid inni gynnig cymorth 24-awr ar gyfer beichiogrwydd cymhleth, gyda phob ymyriad posibl wrth law.

I refer you back to the young lady who had not been seen at 26 weeks. I am continuing to work with people across the Vale of Clwyd to keep them informed, while urging the health board to engage meaningfully with those affected before any decision is made. Health boards cannot hide behind their interpretation of a word. They cannot say that a review is just a review and therefore there will not be consultation. They must consult and they must find ways to consult with those who are hardest to reach. Above all, they must listen to those who know best. They must listen to mums and their unborn children. They must listen to mothers and families in hard-to-reach communities and they must tell them that they are on their side—which, at the moment, I do not think Betsi Cadwaladr University Local Health Board is.

Fe’ch cyfeiriaf yn ôl at y ferch ifanc na chafodd ei gweld ar ei chyfnod 26 wythnos. Yr wyf yn parhau i weithio gyda phobl ar draws Dyffryn Clwyd i’w hysbysu, tra’n annog y bwrdd iechyd i ymgysylltu’n ystyrlon â’r rhai yr effeithir arnynt cyn y gwneir unrhyw benderfyniad. Ni all byrddau iechyd guddio y tu ôl eu dehongliad o air. Ni allant ddweud bod adolygiad yn adolygiad yn unig ac felly ni fydd ymgynghori. Rhaid iddynt ymgynghori a rhaid iddynt ddarganfod ffyrdd i ymgynghori â’r rhai anoddaf eu cyrraedd. Uwchlaw popeth, rhaid iddyn nhw wrando ar y rhai sy’n gwybod orau. Rhaid iddynt wrando ar famau a’u plant sydd heb eu geni. Rhaid iddyn nhw wrando ar famau a theuluoedd mewn cymunedau sy’n anodd eu cyrraedd a rhaid iddynt ddweud wrthynt eu bod ar eu hochr—ar y funud, nid wyf yn meddwl bod Bwrdd Iechyd Lleol Prifysgol Betsi Cadwaladr.

Llyr Huws Gruffydd: Rhan o’r broblem yw bod perygl ceisio gosod cynllun metropolitanaidd, sydd efallai’n gweithio mewn dinasoedd, ar ardal eang a lled-wledig sydd heb gysylltiadau trafnidiaeth arbennig o dda. Fel yr ydym i gyd yn gwybod, mae pryderon penodol am hyn yng ngogledd Cymru, ond mae gofidiau real iawn am hyn hefyd mewn ardaloedd eraill ar draws Cymru, ac yr wyf innau hefyd yn synnu fod y Ceidwadwyr yn anwybyddu rhannau helaeth o Gymru yn eu gwelliannau. Er ein bod wrth gwrs yn cefnogi amddiffyn gwasanaethau yn y gogledd, yr wyf yn synnu bod Aelodau eraill y Ceidwadwyr yn hapus i’w llefarydd fod ychydig yn blwyfol ar draul ardaloedd eraill o Gymru sydd hefyd yn wynebu toriadau. 

Llyr Huws Gruffydd: Part of the problem is that there is a danger of trying to impose a metropolitan scheme, which perhaps works in cities, on a broader and semi-rural area that does not have particularly good transport links. As we all know, there are specific concerns about this in north Wales, but there are also very real concerns about this in other areas throughout Wales, and I am also surprised that the Conservatives ignore large parts of Wales in their amendments. While we of course support defending services in north Wales, I am surprised that the other Conservative Members are happy to allow to their spokesperson to be somewhat parochial at the expense of other parts of Wales that are also facing cuts.

Mae pob mam sy’n cael ei phlentyn cyntaf, lle bynnag mae’n byw, yn cael ei hystyried yn risg uchel. Mae pob mam sydd wedi cael rhyw fath o broblemau yn ystod beichiogrwydd, lle bynnag mae’n byw, hefyd yn cael ei hystyried yn risg uchel. Mae llawer o famau hefyd yn datblygu problemau yn ystod genedigaeth. Mae’n bosibl mai’r unig ddewis i’r rhain fydd râs wib i gael gofal arbenigol mewn canolfan ganolog. Mae Cymdeithas Feddygol Prydain yn bryderus y gallai lefelau marwolaeth ymhlith babanod godi 25 y cant oherwydd canoli gwasanaethau arbenigol. Mae angen i wasanaethau gofal arbenigol a gwasanaethau dwys fod wrth law i’r un o bob 10 genedigaeth sydd angen y gofal arbenigol hwnnw. Dyna pam ei bod yn gwneud synnwyr cael tair canolfan ar draws gogledd Cymru, a dyna pam fod tair canolfan wedi esblygu fel ag y maent ar draws y gogledd.

Every mother who is having her first child, regardless of where she lives, is considered to be high risk. Every mother who has had some sort of problem during pregnancy, regardless of where she lives, is also considered to be high risk. There are also many mothers who develop problems during childbirth. It is possible that the only choice open to these women will be a wild dash to have specialist care in a centralised unit. The BMA is concerned that levels of infant mortality could increase 25 per cent as a result of the centralisation of specialist services. Specialist care services and intensive services need to be at hand for the one in every 10 births that need that specialist care. That is why it makes sense to have three centres across north Wales, and that is why three centres have evolved in the way that they have across north Wales.

Yn ôl arbenigwyr, bydd hyd at bedwar o bob 10 genedigaeth yn cael eu hystyried yn risg uchel, ac felly’n gorfod symud i ganolfan arbenigol a fydd o bosibl ymhell o’r cartref. Mae hynny’n golygu siwrnai o hyd at 40 milltir i rai, ac yr ydym hefyd yn ymwybodol o’r pwysau sydd ar y gwasanaeth ambiwlans a’r cynnydd mewn pwysau a ddaw yn sgîl yn y galw ychwanegol ar ei wasanaethau.

According to experts, up to four in 10 births will be considered to be high risk, and therefore will need to be moved to a specialist centre that could be far from the home. That means a journey of up to 40 miles for some, and we are also aware of the pressure on the ambulance service and the increased pressure that will result from the additional demand for its services.

Mae Bwrdd Iechyd Lleol Prifysgol Betsi Cadwaladr hefyd yn bwriadu denu mamau gogledd Powys sydd ar hyn o bryd yn teithio i’r Amwythig, lle mae’r un math o ganoli’n digwydd, gyda llawer o famau o bosibl yn gorfod teithio i Telford. Mae’r bwrdd hefyd yn bwriadu denu mamau o’r gogledd a fyddai’n cael eu babanod yng Nghaer ar hyn o bryd yn ôl i Gymru. Yr wyf yn cymeradwyo’r bwriad hwnnw, ond bydd yn golygu mwy o alw am y gwasanaeth, bydd yn rhoi mwy o bwysau ar unedau gofal arbennig ac felly bydd mwy o angen cadw’r gwasanaeth arbenigol presennol sydd gennym. 

Betsi Cadwaladr University Local Health Board also intends to attract mothers from north Powys who currently travel to Shrewsbury, where the same sort of centralisation is happening, with many mothers possibly having to travel to Telford. The board also intends to attract mothers from north Wales who would currently have their babies in Chester back to Wales. I applaud that aim, but it would mean more demand for the service, which will put more pressure on specialist care units and therefore there will be a greater need to keep the specialist service that we currently have.

Ar ddiwrnod ei hethol, rhoddodd y Gweinidog iechyd addewid fel Aelod Cynulliad Wrecsam y byddai’n amddiffyn y gwasanaeth yn ei thref ei hun. Yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd yn ymwybodol y bydd pobl yn disgwyl iddi fod yn driw i’w gair, ond bydd hefyd yn ymwybodol fod trigolion ardal Ysbyty Glan Clwyd ac Ysbyty Gwynedd, ac ym mhob rhan o Gymru, am wybod nad ydynt yn wynebu canoli gwasanaethau mewn modd a fydd yn arwain at fwy o risg i famau a babanod.

On the day of her election, the Minister for health gave a promise as the Assembly Member for Wrexham that she would defend the service in her own town. I am sure that she will be aware that people will expect her to be true to her word, but she will also be aware that residents in the areas of Ysbyty Glan Clwyd, Ysbyty Gwynedd, and in all parts of Wales, want to know that they will not face a centralisation of services that will lead to greater risk for mothers and children.

Jenny Rathbone: It is important that we do not shape our maternity services around critical and dramatic incidents that might occur in small numbers. I think that the previous speaker said that four out of 10 women will need specialist medical care. I absolutely disagree, as there is no evidence for that. Most women will experience a natural childbirth as long as they are properly looked after. 

Jenny Rathbone: Mae’n bwysig nad ydym yn llunio ein gwasanaethau mamolaeth o amgylch digwyddiadau critigol a dramatig a gallai ddigwydd mewn nifer bach o achosion. Credaf fod y siaradwr blaenorol wedi dweud y bydd angen gofal meddygol arbenigol i bedwar o bob 10 o fenywod. Anghytunaf yn llwyr, gan nad oes unrhyw dystiolaeth ar gyfer hynny. Bydd y rhan fwyaf o fenywod yn cael genedigaeth naturiol cyhyd â’u bod yn derbyn y gofal priodol.

Llyr Huws Gruffydd: I fod yn eglur, yr ystadegyn oedd bod pedwar o bob 10 genedigaeth yn cael eu hystyried yn risg uchel.

Llyr Huws Gruffydd: To be clear, the statistic was that four out of 10 births are considered to be high risk.

Jenny Rathbone: I do not think that four in 10 should be considered to be high risk; that is the voice of obstetricians speaking. Most women will want to have a natural birth as long as they are properly supported. Although things occasionally go wrong—I will speak briefly about amendment 5 later—in the main, the clear vision laid down by the Minister is a clear strategy for improving and enhancing maternity services that are based around the needs of women and their babies. Therefore, I strongly welcome the strategy that the Minister has put forward.  

Jenny Rathbone: Nid wyf yn credu y dylid ystyried pedwar o bob 10 yn risg uchel; dyna lais yr obstetryddion yn siarad. Bydd y rhan fwyaf o fenywod yn dymuno cael genedigaeth naturiol cyhyd ag y bod y gefnogaeth briodol ganddynt. Er bod pethau, yn achlysurol, yn mynd o chwith—siaradaf yn fyr am welliant 5 yn ddiweddarach—yn bennaf, mae’r weledigaeth glir a bennwyd gan y Gweinidog yn strategaeth glir ar gyfer gwella a gwella gwasanaethau mamolaeth yn seiliedig ar anghenion menywod a’u babanod. Felly, croesawaf yn gryf y strategaeth y mae’r Gweinidog wedi’i chyflwyno.

In particular, I wish to highlight one or two important things. I very much welcome the proposal to reinvigorate maternity services liaison committees. I appreciate that, in some areas, they have been allowed to die a death because not enough effort has been put into them, but they can be a very powerful way of bringing all the stakeholders together, including users, to ensure that resources are being used to maximise the best possible service based on the best evidence.

Yn benodol, hoffwn dynnu sylw at un neu ddau o bethau pwysig. Croesawaf yn fawr y cynnig i ailfywiogi pwyllgorau cyswllt gwasanaethau mamolaeth. Yr wyf yn gwerthfawrogi eu bod, mewn rhai ardaloedd, wedi’u caniatáu i fynd i’r gwellt, oherwydd nad oes digon o ymdrech wedi’i roi i mewn iddynt, ond gallant fod yn ffordd bwerus iawn o ddod â’r holl randdeiliaid at ei gilydd, gan gynnwys defnyddwyr, i sicrhau bod adnoddau’n cael eu defnyddio i gael y gwasanaeth gorau posibl yn seiliedig ar y dystiolaeth orau.

5.00 p.m.

Our midwives seem to have taken a bit of a battering this afternoon. I would point out that, in Cardiff, we have managed to reduce the caesarean rate from 25 per cent to 18 per cent, which is a very significant reduction. That must be down to the absolutely excellent work of our midwives in ensuring that women who do not need caesareans do not have them. I therefore commend all the people who have been involved in that, because by far the best way of starting the journey of parenthood is a natural birth, if at all possible. Obviously, we must have caesareans when the mother or the baby is at risk. A caesarean may be necessary in the case of women who have been genitally mutilated. This may not be an issue in many areas, but in Cardiff, there are about 100 cases every year of pregnant women who have been genitally mutilated, and for them, the risks are much greater. If we are serious about having a service in which every woman gets high-quality care, regardless of their background, circumstances or ethnicity, then we must have a high-quality specialist midwife who knows how to care for women who have been genitally mutilated.

Mae’n ymddangos bod ein bydwragedd wedi dod dan y lach rhywfaint y prynhawn yma. Hoffwn nodi, yng Nghaerdydd, ein bod wedi llwyddo i leihau’r gyfradd cesaraidd o 25 y cant i 18 y cant, sy’n ostyngiad sylweddol iawn. Mae’n rhaid bod hynny o ganlyniad i waith rhagorol ein bydwragedd wrth sicrhau nad yw merched nad oes angen arnynt doriad cesaraidd yn eu cael. Felly, cymeradwyaf yr holl bobl sydd wedi bod yn gysylltiedig â hynny, oherwydd, o bell ffordd, y ffordd orau o ddechrau’r daith i fod yn rhieni yw trwy enedigaeth naturiol, os yn bosibl. Yn amlwg, mae’n rhaid inni gael toriadau cesaraidd pan fo’r fam neu’r babi mewn perygl. Efallai y bydd angen toriad cesaraidd yn achos menywod sydd wedi cael eu hanffurfio. Efallai na fydd hyn yn broblem mewn llawer o ardaloedd, ond yng Nghaerdydd, mae tua 100 achos bob blwyddyn o fenywod beichiog sydd wedi cael eu hanffurfio, ac iddynt hwy, mae’r risgiau yn fwy o lawer. Os ydym o ddifrif am gael gwasanaeth lle mae pob menyw’n derbyn gofal o ansawdd uchel, waeth beth yw eu cefndir, amgylchiadau neu ethnigrwydd, yna rhaid inni gael bydwraig arbenigol o ansawdd uchel sy’n gwybod sut i ofalu am fenywod sydd wedi cael eu hanffurfio.

Thirdly, it is important to ensure that midwives are properly trained to ask about a woman’s mental health both antenatal and postnatal and, what is more, to ensure that a service is available if the answer is that she does have a mental health problem. Therefore, the midwife, or other professional, should be properly trained to provide a service that will, in 90 per cent of cases, resolve that level of depression. In 90 per cent of cases, depression will be resolved by six listening visits. That is the best evidence based on the Edinburgh tool. It is not necessary, in most cases, for people to receive secondary mental health services, although they will need to be available in particular circumstances.

Yn drydydd, mae’n bwysig sicrhau bod bydwragedd wedi’i hyfforddi’n briodol i ofyn am iechyd meddwl cyn-geni ac ôl-enedigol y fenyw, ac, at hynny, i sicrhau bod gwasanaeth ar gael os mai’r ateb yw bod ganddi broblem iechyd meddwl. Felly, fe ddylai’r fydwraig neu weithiwr proffesiynol arall gael ei hyfforddi’n briodol i ddarparu gwasanaeth a fydd, yn 90 y cant o achosion, yn datrys y lefel honno o iselder. Yn 90 y cant o achosion, caiff iselder ei ddatrys drwy chwe ymweliad gwrando. Dyna’r dystiolaeth orau yn seiliedig ar offeryn Caeredin. Nides angen, yn y rhan fwyaf o achosion, i bobl dderbyn gwasanaethau iechyd meddwl eilaidd, er y bydd angen iddynt fod ar gael mewn amgylchiadau penodol.

Lastly, I want to talk about amendment 5, which is about emergency services. It is important that we do not kid people that we will be able to provide specialist neonatal units with 24-hour paediatrician and neonatal specialist care in every maternity unit, because it is simply not possible. Where a baby needs that level of specialist care, we must be able to transfer people, by helicopter if necessary, to the optimal service. It may not be possible to do that in every single maternity unit around Wales. We must recognise that. If you need that service, you need the best service. Antoinette Sandbach’s case is very poignant. We must ensure that we get the people who need that service quickly to a hospital that can provide that service.

Yn olaf, hoffwn siarad am welliant 5, sy’n ymwneud â gwasanaethau brys. Mae’n bwysig nad ydym yn twyllo pobl y byddwn yn gallu darparu unedau newyddenedigol arbenigol gyda gofal newyddenedigol arbenigol a phediatregydd 24-awr ym mhob uned mamolaeth, oherwydd nid yw bosibl. Lle mae angen y lefel honno o ofal arbenigol ar faban, mae’n rhaid ein bod yn gallu trosglwyddo pobl, gyda hofrennydd os oes angen, i’r gwasanaeth gorau posibl. Efallai na fydd modd gwneud hynny ym mhob uned mamolaeth o amgylch Cymru. Mae’n rhaid inni gydnabod hynny. Os ydych angen y gwasanaeth hwnnw, rydych angen y gwasanaeth gorau. Mae achos Antoinette Sandbach yn un teimladwy iawn. Mae’n rhaid inni sicrhau ein bod yn cael y bobl sydd angen y gwasanaeth i ysbyty a all ddarparu’r gwasanaeth hwnnw yn gyflym.

Aled Roberts: Un o’r pethau am y Cynulliad yw’r ffaith ein bod yn trafod a thrafod ac, yn y pen draw, mae rhai o’n cyfundrefnau yn methu. Nid wyf yn meddwl am funud bod tasg y Gweinidog yn hawdd. Digon hawdd yw dweud ei bod, fel Aelod dros etholaeth, yn edrych ar ôl y gwasanaeth yn ei hetholaeth ei hun, ond mae’r sefyllfa ar hyn o bryd yn argyfyngus mewn llawer o’r unedau yr ydym yn sôn amdanynt heddiw. Fodd bynnag, yr hyn sy’n fy synnu yw ein bod yn sôn am ddarparu dogfen unwaith eto. Yr wyf wedi edrych ar Gofnodion y Cynulliad yn mynd yn ôl i 2009 pan gyfaddefodd Edwina Hart, fel y Gweinidog â chyfrifoldeb, fod yr amser i drafod yn dirwyn i ben a bod angen gweithredu. Dyma ei geiriau:

Aled Roberts: One of the things about the Assembly is that we have been endlessly debating and, in the end, some of our systems have failed. I do not think for a minute that the Minister’s task is an easy one. It is easy enough to say that, as a constituency Member, she is looking out for the service in her constituency, but the situation as it stands is critical in many of the units that we are discussing today. However, what I find astounding is that we are once more talking of providing a document. I have gone back through the Assembly’s Records to 2009 when Edwina Hart admitted, as the Minister responsible, that the time for talking was coming to an end and that action was needed. Here are her words:

‘I share very much the frustration expressed by Lynne Neagle and Kirsty Williams about the slow progress or lack of progress in some areas’.

Rwy’n rhannu’r rhwystredigaeth a fynegwyd gan Lynne Neagle a Kirsty Williams am y cynnydd araf neu’r diffyg cynnydd mewn rhai ardaloedd.

Mae hwn yn bwnc llosg yn y gogledd, a bu Ann Jones, Darren Millar, Llyr a minnau mewn cyfarfod rhyw wythnos yn ôl i’w drafod. Ein problem yn y gogledd yw’r ffaith nad yw rhieni ac arbenigwyr wedi cael eu darbwyllo mai’r rheswm canolog y tu ôl i adolygiad y gogledd yw diogelwch mamau a babanod.

This is a live issue in the north, and Ann Jones, Darren Millar, Llyr and I held a meeting about a week ago to discuss it. Our problem in the north is the fact that parents and specialists have not been convinced that the central reason behind the review in the north is the safety of mothers and babies.

Nid yw’r gyfundrefn bresennol yn y gogledd yn gynaliadwy.

The current system in north Wales is not sustainable.

Ann Jones: On the safety of mothers and their babies, looking at the services across north Wales, where we have hospitals roughly 35 miles apart, do you not agree that to remove consultant-led services from any one of those would not give mothers and babies the safe outcome that they can currently have in the three that are currently there?

Ann Jones: Ar ddiogelwch mamau a’u babanod, wrth ystyried y gwasanaethau ar draws gogledd Cymru, lle mae gennym ysbytai tua 35 milltir ar wahân, onid ydych yn cytuno na fyddai cael gwared ar wasanaethau dan arweiniad ymgynghorwyr yn rhoi’r canlyniad diogel i famau a babanod y gallant ei gael yn y tri hynny sydd yno ar hyn o bryd?

Aled Roberts: Dyna farn doctoriaid, wrth gwrs, ond yr wyf hefyd yn cydnabod bod geni plant gyda chymorth bydwragedd yn bosibilrwydd i’r mwyafrif o famau. Yr hyn nad wyf yn ei ddeall ar hyn o bryd yw, os bydd un o’r unedau hyn yn cau a’i gwasanaethau’n cael eu canoli yn Ysbyty Glan Clwyd, sut y bydd baban a mam yn Aberdaron yn gallu trosglwyddo yno. Nid yw hynny’n cael ei drafod gan y bwrdd iechyd. Yn wir, yn 2005, am 308 o oriau yn unig y bu unedau’r gogledd ar gau. Fodd bynnag, yn 2010, yr oedd unedau’r gogledd ar gau am 3,672 o oriau oherwydd diffyg staff neu ddiffyg gwelyau. Yn ystod misoedd Mehefin, Gorffennaf, Awst a Rhagfyr 2010, yr oedd y ddwy uned, yng Nglan Clwyd ac yn Wrecsam, ar gau ar yr un adeg. Felly, mae’r sefyllfa y bu i Antoinette ein hatgoffa ohoni yn codi ar fwy nag un achlysur.

Aled Roberts: That is the opinion of doctors, of course, but I also recognise that midwife-led childbirth is a possibility for the majority of mothers. What I do not understand at this time is, if one of the units is to close and services centralised in Ysbyty Glan Clwyd, how a mother and baby in Aberdaron be will able to transfer there. That is not being discussed by the health board. Indeed, in 2005, north Wales units were closed for only 308 hours. However, in 2010, these units were closed for 3,762 hours because of a shortage of either staff or beds. During the months of June, July, August and December 2010, two units, at Glan Clwyd and Wrexham, were closed simultaneously. So, that situation that Antoinette recalled for us has happened on more than one occasion.

Nid yw cynnal strategaeth ac adolygiad yn mynd i’r afael â’r problemau hyn. Yr hyn sydd yn fy synnu, o drafod y mater â doctoriaid yng Nglan Clwyd, yw’r ffaith nad oeddent yn hyderus i’w drafod gyda’u bwrdd iechyd. Cefais fy synnu, felly, nad oeddent hwy, yr arbenigwyr, yn gweld bod yr adolygiad yn un agored a bod ganddynt hawl i drafod yn agored gyda’u rheolwyr. Credaf, Weinidog, fod angen i chi fynd i’r afael â hynny.

Implementing a strategy and review will not address these problems. That amazed me, from discussing the issue with doctors at Glan Clwyd, is the fact that they were not confident about discussing it with the health board. I was astounded, therefore, that they, the specialists, did not regard the review as an open one in which they had a right to be frank with their managers. I believe, Minister, that you need to tackle that.

Gobeithiaf nad strategaeth i drafod fydd hon. Rhaid inni fel Aelodau Cynulliad fynd i’r afael â’r broblem hon. Ni fydd hynny’n hawdd, ond, yn y pen draw, y peth pwysicaf i bob un ohonom yn y Siambr hon, o ba blaid bynnag, yw diogelwch mamau a phlant.

I hope that this will not be a strategy for discussion. As Assembly Members, we must tackle this problem. It will not be easy, but, in the end, the most important thing for each of us in the Chamber, regardless of party, is the safety of mothers and children.

Russell George: The two issues that I want to focus on concern the rural aspect of delivering maternity services, particularly the access to emergency treatment, and the role and importance of maternity services provided to Welsh patients in hospitals in England. It is apt that, in rural health week, we have the opportunity to raise the particular challenge of delivering maternity services to communities.

Russell George: Mae’r ddau fater yr wyf am ganolbwyntio arnynt yn ymwneud â’r  agwedd wledig o ran darparu gwasanaethau mamolaeth, yn enwedig y mynediad at driniaeth frys, a rôl a phwysigrwydd gwasanaethau mamolaeth a ddarperir i gleifion o Gymru mewn ysbytai yn Lloegr. Mae’n addas, yn ystod wythnos iechyd gwledig, fod gennym y cyfle i godi’r her benodol o ddarparu gwasanaethau mamolaeth i gymunedau.

The Wales Audit Office was clear in 2009 that a coherent strategic vision for maternity services in Wales was required to ensure confidence in service delivery. Therefore, I welcome this new strategy and completely understand the Minister’s focus on benchmarking and improving standards and outcomes to ensure consistency in the quality of service provided across Wales. However, maternity services need to be planned in such a way that they meet the needs of the local population, while also promoting best practice. In rural Wales, that means rural-proofing, taking into account the geography and the distances involved in getting women from one location to another, as well as transport links and joint agency working across specific boundaries and borders. It also means an enhanced awareness of risk assessment and management.

Roedd Swyddfa Archwilio Cymru yn glir yn 2009 bod angen gweledigaeth strategol gydlynol ar gyfer gwasanaethau mamolaeth yng Nghymru er mwyn sicrhau hyder wrth ddarparu gwasanaethau. Felly, croesawaf y strategaeth newydd hon ac rwy’n llwyr ddeall  ffocws y Gweinidog ar feincnodi a gwella safonau a chanlyniadau i sicrhau cysondeb yn ansawdd y gwasanaeth a ddarperir ledled Cymru. Fodd bynnag, mae angen cynllunio gwasanaethau mamolaeth mewn ffordd fel eu bod yn diwallu anghenion y boblogaeth leol, tra hefyd yn hyrwyddo arfer gorau. Yng Nghymru wledig, mae hynny’n golygu prawfesur o safbwynt cefn gwlad, gan ystyried y ddaearyddiaeth a’r pellteroedd sy’n gysylltiedig â chael menywod o un lleoliad i’r llall, yn ogystal â chysylltiadau trafnidiaeth a threfniadau cydweithio asiantaethau ar y cyd ar draws ffiniau penodol. Mae hefyd yn golygu ymwybyddiaeth well o asesu a rheoli risg.

All Members are probably aware that Powys is unique in the way that it delivers maternity services. There is no district general hospital, and low-risk women can give birth either at home or at one of the six birthing centres located across Powys. Indeed, 44 per cent elect to have a home birth, which is significantly higher than any other local health board, and one of the highest levels in the UK. That is clearly due to the unique way in which the local health board provides maternity services. Women who present a higher risk generally give birth in geographically close, consultant-led units. In Powys, we have to rely on the Shrewsbury and Telford Hospital NHS Trust, and the reconfiguration of hospital services in Shropshire poses a real problem for my constituents. Perhaps the most contentious aspect of the proposals is the one to bring together the maternity and paediatric services that are currently on two sites, at Telford and Shrewsbury, into a new, £28 million, purpose-built children’s unit at Telford. There are particular issues here. It takes an additional 30 minutes to travel to Telford for specialist, emergency treatment: so, if you are from Newtown, you could spend an hour travelling to Shrewsbury and then another half hour moving on to Telford.

Fe wŷr pob Aelod mae’n debyg fod Powys yn unigryw yn y ffordd y mae’n darparu gwasanaethau mamolaeth. Nid oes ysbyty cyffredinol dosbarth, a gall menywod risg isel roi genedigaeth naill ai gartref neu yn un o’r chwe chanolfan geni ar draws Powys. Yn wir, mae 44 y cant yn dewis rhoi genedigaeth adref, canran sylweddol uwch nag unrhyw fwrdd iechyd lleol arall, ac un o’r uchaf yn y DU. Mae hynny, yn amlwg, oherwydd y ffordd unigryw mae’r bwrdd iechyd lleol yn darparu gwasanaethau mamolaeth. Mae menywod risg uchel, yn gyffredinol, yn rhoi genedigaeth mewn unedau sy’n ddaearyddol agos, dan arweiniad ymgynghorydd. Ym Mhowys, mae’n rhaid inni ddibynnu ar Ymddiriedolaeth GIG Ysbyty Telford a’r Amwythig, ac mae ail-gyflunio gwasanaethau ysbyty yn swydd Amwythig yn achosi problem go iawn i’m hetholwyr. Efallai mai’r elfen fwyaf dadleuol am y cynigion yw’r un i ddwyn ynghyd y gwasanaethau mamolaeth a phediatrig sydd ar hyn o bryd ar ddau safle, yn Telford a’r Amwythig, yn uned plant bwrpasol newydd, £28 miliwn, yn Telford. Mae problemau penodol yma. Mae’n cymryd 30 munud ychwanegol i deithio i Telford  i gael triniaeth frys arbenigol: felly, os ydych o’r Drenewydd, gallech dreulio awr yn teithio i’r Amwythig ac wedyn hanner awr arall i Telford.

The greatest concern for me relates to maternity services and the reduction of obstetric beds from 57 to 41. This is significant because not only does it force women suffering complicated pregnancies or difficult labours to travel further, but when they get there, they might find that there is no bed. What are the options then? Is Wrexham prepared for the increase in demand? Would women experiencing complicated, life-threatening labour be expected to travel even further, to Wolverhampton perhaps, or do we expect everything to be conducted in the back of an ambulance?

Mae’r pryder mwyaf i mi yn ymwneud â gwasanaethau mamolaeth a’r gostyngiad o welyau obstetrig o 57 i 41. Mae hyn yn arwyddocaol achos nid yn unig mae’n gorfodi menywod sy’n dioddef o feichiogrwydd cymhleth neu esgoriad anodd i deithio ymhellach, ond wrth iddynt gyrraedd yno, gallent ganfod nad oes gwely. Beth yw’r opsiynau wedyn? A yw Wrecsam yn barod ar gyfer y cynnydd yn y galw? A fyddai disgwyl i fenywod sy’n dioddef esgoriad cymhleth, lle mae bywyd yn y fantol, i deithio ymhellach fyth, i Wolverhampton efallai, neu a ydym yn disgwyl y caiff popeth ei wneud yng nghefn ambiwlans?

There are serious issues here. The WAO report was clear that hospital maternity units need to have an appropriate number and range of beds for women who have problems during pregnancy. It is also a fact that clinical negligence claims have doubled over the last eight years. They were a heavy resource drain on the old Welsh Risk Pool, and it will undoubtedly test the new redress scheme. The Welsh Government and Powys Teaching Local Health Board must both take action to ensure that women living in Powys experience an excellent and, above all, safe service. After all, giving birth is probably one of the greatest experiences that a woman will have in her lifetime, and we all have a duty to ensure that that is the very best experience it can be.

Mae materion difrifol yma. Roedd adroddiad Swyddfa Archwilio Cymru yn glir bod unedau mamolaeth ysbytai angen nifer ac ystod briodol o welyau ar gyfer menywod sy’n cael problemau yn ystod beichiogrwydd. Mae hefyd yn ffaith bod hawliadau esgeulustod clinigol wedi dyblu dros yr wyth mlynedd diwethaf. Roeddent yn faich trwm ar hen Gronfa Risg Cymru, ac fe fydd, yn ddiau, yn rhoi prawf ar y cynllun iawndal newydd. Mae’n rhaid i Lywodraeth Cymru a Bwrdd Addysgu Iechyd Lleol Powys weithredu i sicrhau bod menywod sy’n byw ym Mhowys yn cael profiad rhagorol ac, uwchlaw popeth, gwasanaeth diogel. Wedi’r cyfan, mae rhoi genedigaeth yn un o’r profiadau mwyaf y bydd menyw’n ei gael yn ei hoes, ac mae gennym oll ddyletswydd i sicrhau mai hwnnw yw’r profiad gorau y gellir ei gael.

The Minister for Health and Social Services (Lesley Griffiths): I would like to thank Members for their contributions. I will try to refer to as many as possible.

Y Gweinidog Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (Lesley Griffiths): Hoffwn ddiolch i Aelodau am eu cyfraniadau. Ceisiaf gyfeirio at gynifer â phosibl.

Elin Jones, Darren Millar and Eluned Parrott referred to midwife numbers. I have to say that I was surprised at the Royal College of Midwives’ statement yesterday that we have this significant shortfall in the number of midwives in Wales. Just last week it was saying that Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland were fine; it was England that had the problem, and David Cameron had gone back on his word that he would significantly increase the number of midwives. I was therefore a bit surprised at that.

Fe wnaeth Elin Jones, Darren Millar ac Eluned Parrott gyfeirio at y niferoedd o fydwragedd. Mae’n rhaid imi ddweud fy mod wedi synnu at ddatganiad Coleg Brenhinol y Bydwragedd ddoe bod gennym y diffyg sylweddol hwn yn nifer y bydwragedd yng Nghymru. Dim ond yr wythnos diwethaf yr oedd yn dweud bod Cymru, yr Alban a Gogledd Iwerddon yn iawn; Lloegr oedd â’r broblem, a bod David Cameron wedi mynd yn ôl ar ei air y byddai’n cynyddu nifer y bydwragedd yn sylweddol. Felly, yr oeddwn wedi synnu braidd at hynny.

In 2007, we had 90 midwife places. The figure in 2008 was 95; in 2009 it was 110; and in 2010 it was 123. There has been a gradual increase. We have had an 11 per cent increase in the number of midwives since 1999. Darren Millar referred to the fact that there are 102 places this year, and because we have had this increase in numbers, we will have enough midwives. We cannot increase the number of student places if that does not reflect what the service tells us it wants. There would not be jobs for them.

Yn 2007, roedd gennym 90 o leoedd bydwraig. Y ffigur yn 2008 oedd 95; yn 2009 roedd yn 110; ac yn 2010 roedd yn 123. Bu cynnydd graddol. Yr ydym wedi cael cynnydd o 11 y cant yn nifer y bydwragedd ers 1999. Cyfeiriodd Darren Millar at y ffaith bod 102 o leoedd y flwyddyn hon, ac oherwydd ein bod wedi cael y cynnydd hwn mewn niferoedd, bydd gennym ddigon o fydwragedd. Ni allwn gynyddu nifer y lleoedd i fyfyrwyr os nad yw hynny’n adlewyrchu’r hyn y mae’r gwasanaeth yn dweud wrthym sydd ei angen arno. Ni fyddai swyddi ar eu cyfer.

Several Members referred to north Wales. I agree: Betsi Cadwaladr University Local Health Board has to improve its openness and transparency and consultation with the public. It has been told that. Darren Millar referred to the petition, and it was interesting that he commented on that—we do not know what Betsi Cadwaladr or any other LHB is putting forward. Obviously, I am the Assembly Member for a north Wales constituency, and over the recess I met with a group of mothers who told me that the local press had contacted them, asking if they were going to fight the changes. They said to me, ‘We do not know what they are; they could be better’. The fact that you have this petition on the go makes me think that you might be jumping the gun.

Cyfeiriodd sawl Aelod at y gogledd. Yr wyf yn cytuno: mae’n rhaid i Fwrdd Iechyd Lleol Prifysgol Betsi Cadwaladr wella ei agwedd agored a thryloyw ac ymgynghori â’r cyhoedd. Cafodd wybod hynny. Cyfeiriodd Darren Millar at y ddeiseb, ac yr oedd yn ddiddorol ei fod wedi gwneud sylwadau ar hynny—nid wyddom beth mae rhoi Betsi Cadwaladr nag unrhyw BILl arall yn mynd i’w gyflwyno. Yn amlwg, rwy’n Aelod Cynulliad dros etholaeth yn y gogledd, ac yn ystod y toriad, cyfarfûm â grŵp o famau a ddywedodd wrthyf fod y wasg leol wedi cysylltu â hwy yn gofyn a oeddent yn mynd i ymladd yn erbyn y newidiadau. Dywedwyd wrthyf, ‘Nid ydym yn gwybod beth ydyn nhw; gallent fod yn well’. Mae’r ffaith bod gennych y ddeiseb hon ar y gweill yn gwneud imi feddwl efallai’ch bod yn rhoi’r drol o flaen y ceffyl.

Darren Millar: Minister, this is not my petition; it is an independent petition that has been put forward by members of the public in north Wales. Some 18,000 people have responded to it, including people in your own constituency. Frankly, by signalling the fact that you are not prepared to allow the retention of consultant-led maternity services at each district general hospital site, you are effectively sounding the death knell for consultant-led services at one or more sites in north Wales. I find that appalling.

Darren Millar: Weinidog, nid fy neiseb i yw hon; mae’n ddeiseb annibynnol a gyflwynwyd gan aelodau o’r cyhoedd yn y gogledd. Mae rhyw 18,000 o bobl wedi ymateb iddi, gan gynnwys pobl yn eich etholaeth chi. A dweud y gwir, drwy ddweud nad ydych yn barod i ganiatáu cadw gwasanaethau mamolaeth dan arweiniad ymgynghorydd ym mhob safle ysbyty cyffredinol dosbarth, rydych, i bob diben, yn rhoi’r farwol i wasanaethau dan arweiniad ymgynghorwyr ar un neu fwy o safleoedd yn y gogledd. Credaf fod hynny’n warthus.

5.15 p.m.

Lesley Griffiths: That is not what the constituents who came to see me told me about the petition. [Interruption.]

Lesley Griffiths: Nid dyna ddywedwyd wrthyf am y ddeiseb gan yr etholwyr a ddaeth i’m gweld. [Torri ar draws.]

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Trefn.

Lesley Griffiths: I recognise that several Members are worried about possible changes to local NHS services. Therefore, I set up the national clinical forum, only to find that that is not welcomed either. I want clinicians to have a look at the proposals of the local health boards over the next few weeks.

Lesley Griffiths: Yr wyf yn cydnabod bod nifer o Aelodau yn pryderu am newidiadau posibl i wasanaethau GIG lleol. Felly, sefydlais y fforwm clinigol cenedlaethol, dim ond i ganfod nad oes croeso iddo ychwaith. Yr wyf am i glinigwyr edrych ar gynigion y byrddau iechyd lleol dros yr ychydig wythnosau nesaf.

Ann Jones: I welcome the fact that clinicians will be looking at this. However, how will you respond to those clinicians in the Betsi Cadwaladr area who put forward options during the review that was halted and now feel that they might as well go home and save their breath to cool their porridge?

Ann Jones: Croesawaf y ffaith y bydd clinigwyr yn edrych ar hyn. Fodd bynnag, sut y byddwch yn ymateb i’r clinigwyr hynny yn ardal Betsi Cadwaladr a gyflwynodd ddewisiadau yn ystod yr adolygiad a gafodd ei atal ac sydd bellach yn teimlo na fyddai waeth pe baent yn mynd adref ac arbed eu hanadl i oeri eu huwd?

Lesley Griffiths: The whole purpose of the national clinical forum is for there to be an independent group of clinicians that will look at the plans that are proposed in order to ensure that they have been proposed from a clinical, rather than a political, perspective.

Lesley Griffiths: Holl bwrpas y fforwm clinigol cenedlaethol yw cael grŵp annibynnol o glinigwyr a fydd yn edrych ar y cynlluniau a gynigir er mwyn sicrhau eu bod wedi eu cynnig o safbwynt clinigol, yn hytrach na gwleidyddol.

Darren Millar: Will you take an intervention?

Darren Millar: A gymerwch ymyriad?

Lesley Griffiths: No, I will not; you have had your chance.

Lesley Griffiths: Na wnaf; rydych wedi cael eich cyfle.

Safety, quality, recruitment and cost are the drivers for change and have to be set against the perceived losses of local services and convenience, and social and political considerations. LHBs cannot allow the service to drift into a lack of safety and sustainability, which may happen if they do not change their configuration. I think that it was Llyr Huws Gruffydd who mentioned women going to England to have their babies—he mentioned Telford and Chester. During recess, I visited Bronglais Hospital in Elin Jones’s constituency and there are concerns about the number of births that take place there per year—there are about 500. We have to ensure that they are safe services. I said to the LHBs that, as they are drawing up their plans, they must not just look at their own services, but across LHB borders to see, for example, whether more women from Powys could go to Bronglais in order to ensure that those services are safe.

Diogelwch, ansawdd, recriwtio a chost yw’r sbardunau ar gyfer newid a rhaid eu gosod yn erbyn y colledion tybiedig o wasanaethau lleol a hwylustod, ac ystyriaethau cymdeithasol a gwleidyddol. Ni all byrddau iechyd lleol ganiatáu i’r gwasanaeth symud tuag at ddiffyg diogelwch a chynaliadwyedd, a allai ddigwydd os nad ydynt yn newid eu cyfluniad. Credaf mai Llyr Huws Gruffydd a wnaeth grybwyll menywod yn mynd i Loegr i gael eu babanod—soniodd am Telford a Chaer. Yn ystod y toriad, ymwelais ag ysbyty Bronglais yn etholaeth Elin Jones ac mae pryderon ynghylch nifer y genedigaethau sy’n digwydd yno pob blwyddyn—ceir tua 500. Rhaid inni sicrhau eu bod yn wasanaethau diogel. Dywedais wrth y byrddau iechyd lleol, wrth iddynt lunio eu cynlluniau, bod rhaid iddynt edrych nid yn unig ar eu gwasanaethau eu hunain, ond ar draws ffiniau’r byrddau iechyd lleol i weld, er enghraifft, os gallai mwy o ferched o Bowys fynd i Fronglais er mwyn sicrhau bod y gwasanaethau hynny’n ddiogel

Where change is being looked at, local health boards must demonstrate the case for it and invite their stakeholders to be part of the process of designing local services. I want to call on all Assembly Members of all parties to get involved in those local service planning discussions and to take responsibility for focusing constructively on opportunities to improve the quality of care. Lynne Neagle referred to the work that she had done during recess. She was right to talk about the pressures of reaching new mums and I think that she has done some excellent work. She talked about normalising hospital life and yesterday, when I was at the University Hospital of Wales with Julie Morgan, we were impressed to see that it now has rooms where the father can stay overnight. Those rooms have now been provided for two months and I would like to see that provision right across Wales.

Pan fo newid yn cael ei ystyried, rhaid i fyrddau iechyd lleol ddangos yr achos dros hynny a gwahodd eu rhanddeiliaid i fod yn rhan o’r broses o gynllunio gwasanaethau lleol. Yr wyf am alw ar holl Aelodau’r Cynulliad o bob plaid i gymryd rhan yn y trafodaethau hynny ar gynllunio gwasanaeth lleol ac i gymryd cyfrifoldeb am ganolbwyntio, mewn ffordd adeiladol, ar gyfleoedd i wella ansawdd y gofal. Cyfeiriodd Lynne Neagle at y gwaith a wnaeth yn ystod y toriad. Yr oedd yn iawn i sôn am y pwysau o gyrraedd mamau newydd a chredaf ei bod wedi gwneud gwaith rhagorol. Soniodd am normaleiddio bywyd ysbyty a ddoe, pan oeddwn yn Ysbyty Athrofaol Cymru gyda Julie Morgan, gwnaed argraff dda arnom i weld, bellach, fod gan yr ysbyty ystafelloedd lle gall tadau aros dros nos. Darparwyd yr ystafelloedd hynny bellach am ddau fis a hoffwn weld y ddarpariaeth honno ar draws Cymru.

Eluned Parrott and Antoinette Sandbach spoke about their personal experiences and we could not help but be moved by that. You spoke about rural issues and, again, when I spoke to midwives in Powys during recess, they told me that they accept the issues that relate to rurality and they are working hard to ensure that they have all the skills that they need to deal with that. I spoke to a community midwife for normality and I asked her what was meant by ‘normality’. She specialises in dealing with women who may be epileptic or diabetic and who want to have a normal birth. We know that if you have epilepsy, you get very tired and it is very important that that does not happen during labour.

Soniodd Eluned Parrott ac Antoinette Sandbach am eu profiadau personol ac ni allwn lai na chydymdeimlo. Soniasoch am faterion gwledig ac, unwaith eto, pan siaradais â bydwragedd ym Mhowys yn ystod y toriad, dywedasant wrthyf eu bod yn derbyn y materion gwledig a’u bod yn gweithio’n galed i sicrhau bod ganddynt y sgiliau sydd eu hangen arnynt i ddelio â hynny. Siaradais â bydwraig gymunedol ar gyfer normalrwydd a gofynnais iddi beth oedd ystyr ‘normalrwydd’. Mae hi’n arbenigo mewn delio â menywod sydd efallai’n epileptig neu’n ddiabetig ac sydd eisiau genedigaeth normal. Gwyddom os oes gennych epilepsi, rydych yn mynd yn flinedig iawn ac mae’n bwysig iawn nad yw hynny’n digwydd yn ystod rhoi genedigaeth.

All of us in the National Assembly have a collective responsibility to support services that are designed to place the patient, or in the case of maternity care, the woman and the baby, at the centre.

Mae gan bob un ohonom yn y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol gyfrifoldeb ar y cyd i gefnogi gwasanaethau sydd wedi’u cynllunio i osod y claf, neu yn achos gofal mamolaeth, y fenyw a’r baban, yn y canol.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: It has been agreed that voting time will take place after the last item of business. Before I proceed to voting, are there three Members who wish for the bell to be rung? I see that there are not, so we will proceed to voting time.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Cytunwyd y bydd y cyfnod pleidleisio yn cymryd lle ar ôl yr eitem olaf o fusnes. Cyn imi fynd ymlaen at y pleidleisio, a oes tri Aelod sy’n dymuno i’r gloch gael ei chanu? Gwelaf nad oes, felly awn ymlaen at y cyfnod pleidleisio.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:
The following Members voted for:

Andrews, Leighton
Antoniw, Mick
Asghar, Mohammad
Black, Peter
Chapman, Christine
Cuthbert, Jeff
Davies, Andrew R.T.
Davies, Byron
Davies, Jocelyn
Davies, Keith
Davies, Paul
Drakeford, Mark
Elis-Thomas, Yr Arglwydd/Lord
Evans, Rebecca
Finch-Saunders, Janet
George, Russell
Gething, Vaughan
Graham, William
Gregory, Janice
Griffiths, John
Griffiths, Lesley
Gruffydd, Llyr Huws
Hart, Edwina
Hedges, Mike
Hutt, Jane
Isherwood, Mark
James, Julie
Jenkins, Bethan
Jones, Alun Ffred
Jones, Ann
Jones, Carwyn
Jones, Elin
Jones, Ieuan Wyn
Lewis, Huw
Mewies, Sandy
Millar, Darren
Morgan, Julie
Neagle, Lynne
Parrott, Eluned
Powell, William
Price, Gwyn R.
Ramsay, Nick
Rathbone, Jenny
Rees, David
Roberts, Aled
Sandbach, Antoinette
Sargeant, Carl
Skates, Kenneth
Thomas, Gwenda
Thomas, Rhodri Glyn
Thomas, Simon
Watson, Joyce
Whittle, Lindsay
Wood, Leanne

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment agreed.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:
The following Members voted for:

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn:
The following Members voted against:

Asghar, Mohammad
Black, Peter
Davies, Andrew R.T.
Davies, Byron
Davies, Jocelyn
Davies, Paul
Davies, Suzy
Elis-Thomas, Yr Arglwydd/Lord
Finch-Saunders, Janet
George, Russell
Graham, William
Gruffydd, Llyr Huws
Isherwood, Mark
Jenkins, Bethan
Jones, Alun Ffred
Jones, Elin
Jones, Ieuan Wyn
Millar, Darren
Parrott, Eluned
Powell, William
Ramsay, Nick
Roberts, Aled
Sandbach, Antoinette
Thomas, Rhodri Glyn
Thomas, Simon
Whittle, Lindsay
Wood, Leanne

Andrews, Leighton
Antoniw, Mick
Chapman, Christine
Cuthbert, Jeff
Davies, Keith
Drakeford, Mark
Evans, Rebecca
Gething, Vaughan
Gregory, Janice
Griffiths, John
Griffiths, Lesley
Hart, Edwina
Hedges, Mike
Hutt, Jane
James, Julie
Jones, Ann
Jones, Carwyn
Lewis, Huw
Mewies, Sandy
Morgan, Julie
Neagle, Lynne
Price, Gwyn R.
Rathbone, Jenny
Rees, David
Sargeant, Carl
Skates, Kenneth
Thomas, Gwenda
Watson, Joyce

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment not agreed.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:
The following Members voted for:

Andrews, Leighton
Antoniw, Mick
Asghar, Mohammad
Black, Peter
Chapman, Christine
Cuthbert, Jeff
Davies, Andrew R.T.
Davies, Byron
Davies, Jocelyn
Davies, Keith
Davies, Paul
Davies, Suzy
Drakeford, Mark
Elis-Thomas, Yr Arglwydd/Lord
Evans, Rebecca
Finch-Saunders, Janet
George, Russell
Gething, Vaughan
Graham, William
Gregory, Janice
Griffiths, John
Griffiths, Lesley
Gruffydd, Llyr Huws
Hart, Edwina
Hedges, Mike
Hutt, Jane
Isherwood, Mark
James, Julie
Jenkins, Bethan
Jones, Alun Ffred
Jones, Ann
Jones, Carwyn
Jones, Elin
Jones, Ieuan Wyn
Lewis, Huw
Mewies, Sandy
Millar, Darren
Morgan, Julie
Neagle, Lynne
Parrott, Eluned
Powell, William
Price, Gwyn R.
Ramsay, Nick
Rathbone, Jenny
Rees, David
Roberts, Aled
Sandbach, Antoinette
Sargeant, Carl
Skates, Kenneth
Thomas, Gwenda
Thomas, Rhodri Glyn
Thomas, Simon
Watson, Joyce
Whittle, Lindsay
Wood, Leanne

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment agreed.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:
The following Members voted for:

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn:
The following Members voted against:

Asghar, Mohammad
Black, Peter
Davies, Andrew R.T.
Davies, Byron
Davies, Jocelyn
Davies, Paul
Davies, Suzy
Elis-Thomas, Yr Arglwydd/Lord
Finch-Saunders, Janet
George, Russell
Graham, William
Gruffydd, Llyr Huws
Isherwood, Mark
Jenkins, Bethan
Jones, Alun Ffred
Jones, Elin
Jones, Ieuan Wyn
Millar, Darren
Parrott, Eluned
Powell, William
Ramsay, Nick
Roberts, Aled
Sandbach, Antoinette
Thomas, Rhodri Glyn
Thomas, Simon
Whittle, Lindsay
Wood, Leanne

Andrews, Leighton
Antoniw, Mick
Chapman, Christine
Cuthbert, Jeff
Davies, Keith
Drakeford, Mark
Evans, Rebecca
Gething, Vaughan
Gregory, Janice
Griffiths, John
Griffiths, Lesley
Hart, Edwina
Hedges, Mike
Hutt, Jane
James, Julie
Jones, Ann
Jones, Carwyn
Lewis, Huw
Mewies, Sandy
Morgan, Julie
Neagle, Lynne
Price, Gwyn R.
Rathbone, Jenny
Rees, David
Sargeant, Carl
Skates, Kenneth
Thomas, Gwenda
Watson, Joyce

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment not agreed.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:
The following Members voted for:

Andrews, Leighton
Antoniw, Mick
Asghar, Mohammad
Black, Peter
Chapman, Christine
Cuthbert, Jeff
Davies, Andrew R.T.
Davies, Byron
Davies, Jocelyn
Davies, Keith
Davies, Paul
Davies, Suzy
Drakeford, Mark
Elis-Thomas, Yr Arglwydd/Lord
Evans, Rebecca
Finch-Saunders, Janet
George, Russell
Gething, Vaughan
Graham, William
Gregory, Janice
Griffiths, John
Griffiths, Lesley
Gruffydd, Llyr Huws
Hart, Edwina
Hedges, Mike
Hutt, Jane
Isherwood, Mark
James, Julie
Jenkins, Bethan
Jones, Alun Ffred
Jones, Ann
Jones, Carwyn
Jones, Elin
Jones, Ieuan Wyn
Lewis, Huw
Mewies, Sandy
Millar, Darren
Morgan, Julie
Neagle, Lynne
Parrott, Eluned
Powell, William
Price, Gwyn R.
Ramsay, Nick
Rathbone, Jenny
Rees, David
Roberts, Aled
Sandbach, Antoinette
Sargeant, Carl
Skates, Kenneth
Thomas, Gwenda
Thomas, Rhodri Glyn
Thomas, Simon
Watson, Joyce
Whittle, Lindsay
Wood, Leanne

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment agreed.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:
The following Members voted for:

Andrews, Leighton
Antoniw, Mick
Asghar, Mohammad
Black, Peter
Chapman, Christine
Cuthbert, Jeff
Davies, Andrew R.T.
Davies, Byron
Davies, Jocelyn
Davies, Keith
Davies, Paul
Davies, Suzy
Drakeford, Mark
Elis-Thomas, Yr Arglwydd/Lord
Evans, Rebecca
Finch-Saunders, Janet
George, Russell
Gething, Vaughan
Graham, William
Gregory, Janice
Griffiths, John
Griffiths, Lesley
Gruffydd, Llyr Huws
Hart, Edwina
Hedges, Mike
Hutt, Jane
Isherwood, Mark
James, Julie
Jenkins, Bethan
Jones, Alun Ffred
Jones, Ann
Jones, Carwyn
Jones, Elin
Jones, Ieuan Wyn
Lewis, Huw
Mewies, Sandy
Millar, Darren
Morgan, Julie
Neagle, Lynne
Parrott, Eluned
Powell, William
Price, Gwyn R.
Ramsay, Nick
Rathbone, Jenny
Rees, David
Roberts, Aled
Sandbach, Antoinette
Sargeant, Carl
Skates, Kenneth
Thomas, Gwenda
Thomas, Rhodri Glyn
Thomas, Simon
Watson, Joyce
Whittle, Lindsay
Wood, Leanne

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment agreed.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:
The following Members voted for:

Andrews, Leighton
Antoniw, Mick
Asghar, Mohammad
Black, Peter
Chapman, Christine
Cuthbert, Jeff
Davies, Andrew R.T.
Davies, Byron
Davies, Jocelyn
Davies, Keith
Davies, Paul
Davies, Suzy
Drakeford, Mark
Elis-Thomas, Yr Arglwydd/Lord
Evans, Rebecca
Finch-Saunders, Janet
George, Russell
Gething, Vaughan
Graham, William
Gregory, Janice
Griffiths, John
Griffiths, Lesley
Gruffydd, Llyr Huws
Hart, Edwina
Hedges, Mike
Hutt, Jane
Isherwood, Mark
James, Julie
Jenkins, Bethan
Jones, Alun Ffred
Jones, Ann
Jones, Carwyn
Jones, Elin
Jones, Ieuan Wyn
Lewis, Huw
Mewies, Sandy
Millar, Darren
Morgan, Julie
Neagle, Lynne
Parrott, Eluned
Powell, William
Price, Gwyn R.
Ramsay, Nick
Rathbone, Jenny
Rees, David
Roberts, Aled
Sandbach, Antoinette
Sargeant, Carl
Skates, Kenneth
Thomas, Gwenda
Thomas, Rhodri Glyn
Thomas, Simon
Watson, Joyce
Whittle, Lindsay
Wood, Leanne

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment agreed.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:
The following Members voted for:

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn:
The following Members voted against:

Asghar, Mohammad
Black, Peter
Davies, Andrew R.T.
Davies, Byron
Davies, Jocelyn
Davies, Paul
Davies, Suzy
Elis-Thomas, Yr Arglwydd/Lord
Finch-Saunders, Janet
George, Russell
Graham, William
Gruffydd, Llyr Huws
Isherwood, Mark
Jenkins, Bethan
Jones, Alun Ffred
Jones, Elin
Jones, Ieuan Wyn
Millar, Darren
Parrott, Eluned
Powell, William
Ramsay, Nick
Roberts, Aled
Sandbach, Antoinette
Thomas, Rhodri Glyn
Thomas, Simon
Whittle, Lindsay
Wood, Leanne

Andrews, Leighton
Antoniw, Mick
Chapman, Christine
Cuthbert, Jeff
Davies, Keith
Drakeford, Mark
Evans, Rebecca
Gething, Vaughan
Gregory, Janice
Griffiths, John
Griffiths, Lesley
Hart, Edwina
Hedges, Mike
Hutt, Jane
James, Julie
Jones, Ann
Jones, Carwyn
Lewis, Huw
Mewies, Sandy
Morgan, Julie
Neagle, Lynne
Price, Gwyn R.
Rathbone, Jenny
Rees, David
Sargeant, Carl
Skates, Kenneth
Thomas, Gwenda
Watson, Joyce

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment not agreed.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:
The following Members voted for:

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn:
The following Members voted against:

Asghar, Mohammad
Black, Peter
Davies, Andrew R.T.
Davies, Byron
Davies, Jocelyn
Davies, Paul
Davies, Suzy
Elis-Thomas, Yr Arglwydd/Lord
Finch-Saunders, Janet
George, Russell
Graham, William
Gruffydd, Llyr Huws
Isherwood, Mark
Jenkins, Bethan
Jones, Alun Ffred
Jones, Elin
Jones, Ieuan Wyn
Millar, Darren
Parrott, Eluned
Powell, William
Ramsay, Nick
Roberts, Aled
Sandbach, Antoinette
Thomas, Rhodri Glyn
Thomas, Simon
Whittle, Lindsay
Wood, Leanne

Andrews, Leighton
Antoniw, Mick
Chapman, Christine
Cuthbert, Jeff
Davies, Keith
Drakeford, Mark
Evans, Rebecca
Gething, Vaughan
Gregory, Janice
Griffiths, John
Griffiths, Lesley
Hart, Edwina
Hedges, Mike
Hutt, Jane
James, Julie
Jones, Ann
Jones, Carwyn
Lewis, Huw
Mewies, Sandy
Morgan, Julie
Neagle, Lynne
Price, Gwyn R.
Rathbone, Jenny
Rees, David
Sargeant, Carl
Skates, Kenneth
Thomas, Gwenda
Watson, Joyce

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment not agreed.

Cynnig NDM4796 fel y’i diwygiwyd:

Motion NDM4796 as amended:

Cynnig bod Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru:

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:

1. Yn cydnabod cyfrifoldeb Llywodraeth Cymru ar gyfer gwella gwasanaethau mamolaeth yng Nghymru: ac

1. Recognises the Welsh Government’s responsibility for improving maternity services in Wales: and

2. Yn nodi bod Llywodraeth Cymru yn credu:

2. Notes that the Welsh Government believes that:

a) y dylai gwasanaethau mamolaeth ledled Cymru gael eu trefnu i ddiwallu anghenion menywod a’u babanod;

a) maternity services across Wales, should be organised to meet the needs of women and their babies;

b) y dylai popeth posibl gael ei wneud i ddiogelu a gwella iechyd menywod a’u babanod; ac

b) everything possible should be done to protect and improve the health and well being of mothers and their babies; and

c) y dylai beichiogrwydd a geni plant fod yn brofiad diogel sy’n gwella ac yn cyfoethogi bywyd.

c) pregnancy and childbirth should be a safe, fulfilling life enhancing experience;

3. Yn cydnabod y pryder sylweddol ymysg y cyhoedd ynghylch dyfodol gwasanaethau mamolaeth yn y Gogledd;

3. Acknowledges the significant public concern over the future of maternity services in North Wales;

4. Yn cydnabod pwysigrwydd mynediad prydlon at wasanaethau mamolaeth brys mewn ardaloedd gwledig;

4. Recognises the importance of timely access to emergency maternity services in rural areas;

5. Yn cydnabod pwysigrwydd gwasanaethau mamolaeth a ddarperir i gleifion o Gymru gan ysbytai yn Lloegr; ac

5. Recognises the importance of maternity services provided to Welsh patients by hospitals in England; and

6. Yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cymru i gynnal a chadw llefydd ar gyfer hyfforddiant bydwreigiaeth yng Nghymru, er mwyn darparu lefel gynaliadwy o ddatblygiad proffesiynol ar gyfer y rheini sy’n gweithio yn y gwasanaethau mamolaeth yn GIG Cymru.

6. Calls on the Welsh Government to maintain places for midwifery training in Wales, so as to provide a sustainable level of professional development for those working within Welsh NHS maternity services.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:
The following Members voted for:

Andrews, Leighton
Antoniw, Mick
Asghar, Mohammad
Black, Peter
Chapman, Christine
Cuthbert, Jeff
Davies, Andrew R.T.
Davies, Byron
Davies, Keith
Davies, Paul
Davies, Suzy
Drakeford, Mark
Evans, Rebecca
Finch-Saunders, Janet
George, Russell
Gething, Vaughan
Graham, William
Gregory, Janice
Griffiths, John
Griffiths, Lesley
Hart, Edwina
Hedges, Mike
Hutt, Jane
Isherwood, Mark
James, Julie
Jones, Ann
Jones, Carwyn
Lewis, Huw
Mewies, Sandy
Millar, Darren
Morgan, Julie
Neagle, Lynne
Parrott, Eluned
Powell, William
Price, Gwyn R.
Ramsay, Nick
Rathbone, Jenny
Rees, David
Roberts, Aled
Sandbach, Antoinette
Sargeant, Carl
Skates, Kenneth
Thomas, Gwenda
Watson, Joyce

Ymataliodd yr Aelodau canlynol:
The following Members abstained:

Davies, Jocelyn
Elis-Thomas, Yr Arglwydd/Lord
Jones, Ieuan Wyn
Jones, Elin
Jones, Alun Ffred
Thomas, Rhodri Glyn
Thomas, Simon
Wood, Leanne
Gruffydd, Llyr Huws
Jenkins, Bethan
Whittle, Lindsay

Derbyniwyd NDM4796 fel y’i diwygiwyd.
Motion NDM4796 as amended agreed.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: That concludes today’s business.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Daw hynny â thrafodion heddiw i ben.